Interview with Dr. Malcolm Yarnell

Dr. Malcolm Yarnell (D.Phil, Oxford University) is Associate Professor of Systematic Theology, Editor of the Southwestern Journal of Theology, Director of the Oxford Study Program, and Director of the Center for Theological Research at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Dr. Yarnell's interests are in Systematic Theology (Trinity, Pneumatology, Ecclesiology), Historical Theology (Reformation), Baptist and Free Church Studies (17th Century Origins, Southern Baptists), and Political Theology. He contributes to academic scholarship in all four areas. He is the author of The Formation of Christian Doctrine, and is under contract for the publication of his doctoral dissertation, Royal Priesthood in the English Reformation, as well as a new Baptist Heritage text. He also writes for denominational publications and generates several academic articles per year for peer reviewed and other academic journals. Although he has been offered major leadership positions over other academic institutions, Dr. Yarnell feels that he is called to disciple future leaders of the churches of Jesus Christ; therefore, his goal is to edify the local churches through Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. He is a frequent guest speaker to academic, denominational, and local church audiences.

1. What do you see as the greatest strength of the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

The greatest strength of the Southern Baptist Convention [SBC] has been, is now, and always will be the faithfulness of her local churches to Jesus Christ our Lord as revealed in His Word. It is only as the local churches surrender entirely to Jesus Christ as Lord that our churches may be considered healthy. Furthermore, it is only as these same churches set the agenda for the various church-authorized entities of the SBC that those entities have any possible reason to exist. If the SBC, her entities, or her leaders ever consider themselves independent or even partially independent of the local churches, they will one day discover that they have no real authority. Unless it recognizes and honors its entire dependence upon and assigned service role to the local churches established by Christ, the SBC will go the way of every usurping organization, whether such a supra-local denomination is based in Rome, Canterbury, Geneva, or Nashville.

2. What do you see as the greatest weakness or problem in the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

The greatest weakness in the Southern Baptist Convention of the last few years has been our forgetfulness of what it means to be New Testament churches devoted to following Christ. We have too often taken our eyes off of Christ and His Word, and put them upon the world and her words. Our motives have not been evil in themselves; indeed, usually, we have been driven by an appropriate evangelistic zeal. Unfortunately, zeal without knowledge is a recipe for spiritual disaster. When we forsake the biblical means or methodology in a thoughtless rush to adopt a seemingly successful worldly means or methodology, we have forsaken what Christ established for His church.

As a pastor, I was constantly bombarded with appeals to listen to this or that organization promoting a new method, a new program, or a new theology. All of them boldly promised that they could make my church better, bigger, and/or more relevant. And these typically “evangelical” alternatives usually came well-packaged, appealing to the commercial and pop culture mindset of America. What I discovered was that these alien paradigms too often borrowed from worldly means, and that if followed, they inevitably weaken a church because worldly methods take a church’s eyes off of the Lord. If you try to reach the world with worldly means, you will subvert Christ’s plan for the churches to reach the world.

3. What do you think is the greatest threat or challenge to the Southern Baptist Convention right now? span>

It is difficult to fold the multiple threats facing the Southern Baptist Convention into one concept. Several of our White Papers at BaptistTheology.org have detailed a number of such threats. However, if I could choose one word to describe the common nature of the many threats that we face, it is “forgetfulness.” We pastors, educators and missionaries, young and old alike, this preacher-professor included, are forgetting our former rootedness in biblical soteriology and biblical ecclesiology.

First, consider recent attempts to bury the biblical doctrine of salvation under the sometimes bizarre teachings that emanate from Minneapolis and southern California. Rather than being satisfied with a simple biblical soteriology, we are becoming attracted to the latest fads that repackage and propagate those old extrabiblical and needlessly complex systems known historically as Calvinism and Wesleyanism. When I have listeners who become offended because I have spoken the truth about the rationalistic excesses of Reformed theology and have pointed them to Scripture instead, that is a fairly good indication that some of us are more concerned to keep faithful to Presbyterian soteriology than to Scripture’s witness. When I have listeners become offended because I tell them that a private experience of “speaking in tongues” or some other personal experience has no spiritual validity if it is not based in the explicit witness of Scripture, that is a fairly good indication that some of us are more concerned to follow a modified Wesleyan experientialism than the salvation taught by Scripture. Finally, with regard to our forgetfulness of biblical soteriology, Southern Baptists have not yet fully considered the severe challenges posed by the implicitly pluralist or inclusivist soteriology of a missiological system that seeks to use authoritatively the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita in evangelism, even under the guise of using such only for “pre-evangelism.” The Word of God, the Bible of the Old and New Testaments, has sufficient power to convert the world—indeed, it alone possesses such saving power. It is that Word alone that we must proclaim, and it is that Word alone that we must teach our people, and it is that Word alone by which we must disciple the peoples of the world. Let us leave the Calvinists and the Wesleyans, Christians though they are, to teach their own extrabiblical systems. Let us leave the Muslims and the Hindus, and Christians they definitely are not, to teach their own profane texts. Let us not just give lip-service to the Bible by glibly chanting “inerrancy” in order to prove an increasingly incredible claim to be a conservative Southern Baptist; let us treat the Bible as the inerrant and all-sufficient text that it truly is. I was saved because somebody gave me God’s Word, and I know of no other way anybody can be saved, other than by God’s Word inscripturated, the Holy Bible.

Second, consider recent innovations and lapses of memory among our churches with regard to a biblical understanding of the church. If I were to point out seven truths that every church must embrace and keep central as a coherent whole in order to consider itself faithful to the New Testament, it would be these: the Word, baptism, the Lord’s Supper, church discipline, prayer, the Great Commission, and congregational governance. First, It is the Word of God that the church must proclaim, and it is the Word of God that is the Christian community’s guide for discipleship. If one cannot find a church practice commanded by Christ and exemplified by the apostles, it is simply not that important. We must put our emphasis upon Scripture and what it teaches. Second, baptism is commanded by Christ and exemplified by the apostles.

According to the Scriptures, baptism is for believers only, by immersion alone, the first means of personal confession of Christ, a symbol of death and resurrection, a means of identification with the Triune God, and the form of entrance into the church. Third, the Lord’s Supper was established as a meaningful celebration of the atonement that Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross for all humanity, and the Lord’s Supper was to be celebrated only among those who are Christ’s disciples. The Lord’s Supper must not be flippantly demoted to become a periodic addendum to worship, nor may it be elevated beyond a meaningful symbol into a sacrament that magically introduces the fleshly presence of Christ. Fourth, church discipline is simply not an option for the church; it is a command. At one time, Southern Baptists were adamant about regenerate church membership; now, we coddle and provide a disservice to the morally or theologically lapsed in our midst by neglecting to practice redemptive church discipline. We thereby treat Christ’s commands as merely options. Fifth, the church must be about prayer. When the church leaves off praise in order to engage in spectacle, it undermines biblical worship. Sixth, the church must be obedient to the Great Commission, and it must be noted that the Great Commission is more than going and evangelizing. The Great Commission is fundamental to the existence of a biblical church, and any church that neglects to send preachers, disciple the nations, baptize new disciples, and teach all things that Christ commanded is disobeying their Lord. Seventh, New Testament ecclesiology is without a doubt congregational in form. Papalism, Episcopalianism, Presbyterianism, and the way of the independent mystic are not biblical forms of the church.

4. What do you believe is the greatest opportunity for the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

The greatest opportunity for Southern Baptists is to embrace the Bible as God’s inerrant and sufficient Word and the Great Commission as God’s sufficient will for our churches. It is by returning to the basics of our faith that we will bring glory to God and prosper our witness to Him. He doesn’t want our burnt offerings; He wants our obedience; and He will honor our obedience.

5. Some have suggested that the Southern Baptist Convention is likely to decline in the near future. What is your assessment of the future of the Southern Baptist Convention?

I am neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet, it should surely go without saying. However, if Southern Baptists neglect to preach God’s Word and obey God’s Word, we will be a failure. Ultimately, we will not be measured by the world’s measures of success—and this is why we should be less concerned with sociological research than we currently are. Ultimately, we will be measured by how faithful we were to hear and obey His Word. Therefore, let us turn our hearts and minds again to reading the Bible and proclaiming the Bible we read.

6. What would you say to a young (or old) pastor who is considering leaving the SBC? Why should they stay a Southern Baptist?

I would say, “Let us sit down, my friend, and talk and see why you want to leave.” Now, if a pastor is not comfortable with traditional Southern Baptist worship patterns, I would encourage him to make sure his proposed alternative is truly biblical. We should humbly recognize that worship styles do change over time and with changes in culture, and we should allow room for various styles among biblically faithful churches. However, there is no room for churches that intentionally neglect or subvert the ordinances of Jesus Christ. Now, after a period of time and conversation, I would encourage that pastor to be true to his principles, whatever they are, and to allow his church to be true to its principles, whatever they are. If a pastor wanted to leave the SBC because he has forsaken the revealed ways of God for the church as we have discerned them and described them in our confession, I would try to persuade him to see the truth as we see it. If he finally remains adamant, for instance, by saying that baptism is an indifferent thing, or by saying that he can practice a form of church government incompatible with the New Testament, or by importing a non-Baptist soteriology, then I would encourage him to find a different communion of churches with which he is comfortable. After all, Southern Baptists are open to many things, but unbiblical beliefs and practices historically have not been countenanced.

7. The resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC has been a controv3ersial issue in some ways. What is your perspective on the resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC?

As you know, I am not considered part of the Calvinist party in the SBC. However, I gladly participated in the “Building Bridges” conference on Calvinism at the Southern Baptist Convention, both to recognize that there is a place for Baptist Calvinists in the SBC and to express concerns about the speculative and distracting system of Calvinism. A number of sermons and articles have also relayed my views of the issue. I will refer your readers to those publications:

http://blogs.lifeway.com/blog/edstetzer/Yarnell%20-%20Calvinism.pdf

http://www.baptistpress.com/bpnews.asp?id=22971

http://www.baptisttheology.org/documents/TheHeartofaBaptist.pdf

8. The issue of elder rule has been controversial in many churches. What is your perspective on ruling elders as an expression of Baptist church polity and ecclesiology?

Well, you do ask the easy questions, don’t you?! Please allow me to summarize my position thematically, for there have been different castings of the idea of “elder rule”: First, let us remind ourselves that “elder” is one translation of presbyteros, and that Scripture equates presbyteros with episcopos in order to describe the office of the one that, today, we typically call “pastor.” If a person means by “elder rule” the denial of congregational governance under the direct Lordship of Jesus Christ, then I would say that elder rule forsakes the New Testament pattern of the church. Moreover, I seriously wonder how long a church that adopts this understanding of elder rule can remain Baptist. Second, if a person adopts a distinction between ruling elders and teaching elder, then I would disagree with his exegesis of 1 Tim. 5:17. Third, if a person argues that churches must appoint multiple elders in every church because elder is used in the New Testament in the plural, then I would say that he is forcing a corporate meaning upon what might merely be, and most likely is, a collective plural. Fourth, if a person argues that some churches may have multiple elders while others may have single elders, then I would identify this as a minor issue that should not disrupt fellowship among Baptists. Finally, if a person argues that “elder rule” means the leadership of a pastor in a congregation that governs itself under Christ, then I would just encourage him to use different language, for we actually agree with one another.

9. What is your perspective on the emergent church movement?

Technically, “emergent church” is a misnomer. First, the so-called emergent church is not a “church,” biblically defined, for the modern term typically refers to a supra-local movement and not to a particular local church. The Bible knows only of two uses of “church:” the local churches that gather now and the universal church that gathers at the end of days. Christian movements, regional entities, national entities, curias, synods, presbyteries, invisibilities, and other such human inventions are not biblical churches. Second, the so-called emergent church is not all that “emergent,” for we used to call some of the teachings associated with the emergent movement, “liberal.” Most emergents refer to their movement as “postmodern,” which is arguably only a radical form of philosophical modernism or liberalism. Historically, old errors may adopt new names under which to hide. Third, there are several branches in this movement, and we must be careful not to paint all of them with the same conceptual brush. Some proponents are closer to the Baptist faith and message than others, as some claim with regard to Mark Driscoll and Acts 29. However, when I hear Driscoll treat our Lord’s command regarding baptism flippantly, or when I hear him repeatedly refer to our Lord’s mother as a “lying whore,” even if while ostensibly defending the virgin birth, I do wonder whether his branch of the movement can find a permanent home in the SBC pace repentance. My hope is that Driscoll will repent of his foul mouth and flippant attitudes regarding dominical institutions.

I do appreciate the emergent movement’s desire to reach people who live in various radical sub-cultures, but I worry about some of the ways that have been adopted. Let it be remembered that every culture has its sin, for cultures are composed of sinful human beings. Because culture is not neutral, we should be careful before adopting new ways in the name of “building bridges,” for human ways inevitably involve sin. The Great Commission does not excuse one from obeying Christ’s call to personal and corporate holiness. Emergent movement proponents have, of course, adopted some very troubling practices, from a traditional biblical perspective. The use of recreational alcohol or sexually-suggestive themes in church or outreach events, much less personally, strikes me as inappropriate and dishonoring of the holy Lord we seek to proclaim.

10. What would you say is the most significant theological issue confronting Southern Baptists in this generation?

Let me end with one question, in answer to your last question: Are Southern Baptist churches and institutions going to become more faithful to Jesus Christ as revealed in His Word, or will we surrender our New Testament distinctives in the emotive and tempestuous rush to declare ourselves emergent, evangelical, and ecumenical?

An Interview with Dr. Nelson Price

Dr. Nelson L. Price is Pastor Emeritus of Roswell Street Baptist Church in Marietta , Georgia and former pastor of Oak Park Baptist Church in New Orleans , Louisiana . Dr. Price, a native of Osyka , Mississippi , has faithfully served SBC churches and entities in a ministry spanning five decades. His service to Southern Baptists has included appointments such as First Vice President of the SBC (1991), President of the SBC Pastor’s Conference (1990), President of the Georgia Baptist Convention (1982-1983), and memberships and accolades with a number of other Southern Baptist and Evangelical entities and institutions. In addition to this service, Dr. Price formerly served as the Chairman of the National Board of Trustees for the Fellowship of Christian Athletes (1999-2005). Dr. Price holds degrees from the University of Southeastern Louisiana (B.S., 1953), New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, Mercer University (D.D., 1984), and Hannibal-LaGrange College (D.D., 1990). He is also the author of sixteen books, including, How to Find Where You Are, I’ve Got to Play on Their Court, Shadows We Run From, and many others.


1. What would you say to a young (old) pastor who is considering leaving the SBC? Why should he stay a Southern Baptist?

Don’t even consider leaving as an option. Faced with this decision as a young pastor I reasoned that if I were not willing to stay and help address issues of which I disapproved I would forfeit my right to criticize those inequities. Furthermore I would weaken support for my beliefs in the convention by however little that might be. If I stayed I had the right and responsibility to address these variances. Staying eventuated in having the privilege of helping draft “The Baptist Faith and Message” statement of 2000.

2. The resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC has been a controversial issue in some ways. What is your perspective on the resurgence in the SBC?

The school of doctrine is one thing. The method of introducing it into a local church and the contentious spirit of many current advocates are other matters of concern. Calvinism has been a nonissue issue among Southern Baptists for so many years most laypersons were not indoctrinated or even aware of its consideration in our ranks. Therefore most pastor search teams have not known to ask a potential pastor about it. Many pastors predisposed toward Calvinism have practiced a policy of don’t ask, don’t tell, and have come in fully aware the church was not committed to the doctrines of Calvinism. They conduct home cell study groups of confidants until they feel they have enough support to introduce it into the mainstream of the church. This has been highly disruptive to many local churches. It is a destructive deception. A potential pastor should be open and clear regarding the issue. The warrior spirit of many young Calvinists in attacking the integrity and intellect of those with whom they disagree is appalling and un-Christ like. Address principles and don’t attack personalities. Don’t try to defend a principle by attempting to destroy the reputation of a person.

3. The issue of elder rule has been a controversial in many churches. What is your perspective on ruling elders as an expression of Baptist church polity and ecclesiology?

In the early church the terms “elders” (presbyteroi) and “bishops” or “overseers” (episkopoi) are used interchangeably as to functions not as titles or offices. The Bible gives clear insight regarding the roles of bishops and deacons but does not for elders leading many scholars to conclude it was not a separate office in the early church. There is no Scripture that teaches a church has to have a board of elders.The term “elder” has gone through an evolution since the Bible times. The present meaning and role is based on the role that evolved in subsequent years of the first century. Biblically the service of elders was to be performed by older individuals who related to the spiritual life within the church not the business affairs. Changing the of church governance can be traumatic for a congregation. If a church has a form of governance that works in place following a current trend is not advantageous.

4. What would you say is the most significant theological issue confronting Southern Baptists in this generation?

Calvinism is foremost, but glossology is emerging once more also. There are so many different schools of Calvinistic thought that no matter what is said to be a belief there are those of other schools who deny it. There are many admirable aspects of Calvinism with which most Souther Baptists agree. A high regard for the authority and integrity of Scripture, the belief that salvation is by grace alone, the atonement of Christ, and the belief that everything should be to the glory of God are broadly held concepts among Baptists. However, irresistible grace which teaches those predestined to be saved cannot resist salvation and limited atonement which says Christ died only for those predestined by God to be saved is where the road forks. This is where the introduction of the doctrines of Calvinism into a traditional Southern Baptist church becomes divisive.

5. What do you think of the plans of former Presidents Carter and Clinton regarding a potential new religious movement of denomination?

Presidents Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton are undertaking the establishment of a new religious denomination.I am a member of the imperfect denomination they are leaving in order to establish a more perfect world order. They say their “all inclusive” denomination will fight poverty, work on health care, environmental issues, and eliminate religious and racial conflict. Both of these men have been critical of Southern Baptists, and we deserve some criticism like most religious bodies. I say most because I met the pastor of one and have his calling card with the name of his church in Atlanta: “The Perfect Church.” I always wanted to meet his wife to see what she had to say about that! In addition to criticizing Southern Baptists they should take time to observe some of the good the denomination is already doing in the areas they propose to address. They have been so preoccupied with criticism they have failed to take note of attributes and assets with which they could ally and achieve far more than by starting another denomination.

In noting areas in which Southern Baptists are making progress I want to readily admit much progress is yet to be made. In 1995 Southern Baptists issued a resolution of repentance. The lengthy document stated in part, “...we apologize to all African Americans for condoning and/or perpetuating individual and systematic racism....” Implementation of the commitments to work for racial reconciliation are ongoing. Peter Wagner of Fuller Theological Seminary, not a Southern Baptist, wrote, “At the top of the list in ethnic ministries in the United States are Southern Baptists.... Southern Baptists are the most ethically diverse denomination, worshiping in 87 languages in more than 4,600 language-culture congregations every Sunday.” It should be noted the denomination works with many diverse racial groups, especially Native Americans. The Interfaith Stewardship Alliance, of which Southern Baptists are a part, has done work in the area of the environment which “would improve the lot of the poor more surely and effectively” than that proposed by many environmentalist groups. Their proposals are believed to be potentially more effective in reducing high rates of disease and premature deaths and have a more positive impact on the poor.

Another area the presidents propose to address is world hunger. Southern Baptists are at the forefront of denominations seeking to provide relief. Much help is needed in that 16,000 children worldwide die daily from hunger-related causes. That is one child every five seconds. The former Presidents need to understand that more can be done more immediately by working in programs already in place than by reinventing the wheel. By doing so time, money, and lives can be saved. Unfortunately, the former Presidents have said nothing about such spiritual ministries as Christ commissioned His church to fulfill: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you...”

Interview with James Rudy Gray

A senior pastor of Southern Baptist churches for over 30 years, James Rudy Gray is Pastor of the Utica Baptist Church in Seneca, South Carolina.

He earned the associate degree from Anderson University; the Bachelor of Arts in Bible degree from Southern Wesleyan University, the Master of Arts in Counseling degree from Liberty University, and the Th.M. and D.Min. degrees from Luther Rice Seminary.

Dr. Gray has been actively involved in the Southern Baptist Convention and the South Carolina Baptist Convention in a number of ways. He currently serves as Chairman of the Board of Trustees of New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, as the Parliamentarian for the South Carolina Baptist Convention, and as a Trustee for Anderson College.

A prolific writer, Dr. Gray serves as a regular columnist (the “At Home” column) for the Baptist Courier, and the “Counselor’s Corner” column in Pulpit Helps. He is the author of the recent book Marriage that Works is Work.

He and his wife Anne have been married for over 30 years and have three adult daughters. For the past 20 years the Grays have led marriage and family conferences, retreats, and seminars. He is a National Certified Counselor with the National Board for Certified Counselors, a Board Certified Christian Counselor with the International Board of Christian Counselors, and a charter member of the American Association of Christian Counselors.

What do you see as the greatest strength of the SBC right now?

The Cooperative Program system of giving and support seems to be the strongest point in the opinion of many. Along with that is our strong identity as a Bible-believing people. Our greatest strength, however, is our churches. We have outstanding institutions, ministries, and mission boards, but without our churches cooperating together for a Great Commission purpose, we would be weak and ineffective.

We still have a strong and positive identity in the country, especially the south. Our Disaster Relief Ministries have allowed us to have a presence and opportunity for witness on a national scale that was not as strong in years past.

What do you see as the greatest weakness?

The growth toward a more centralized denominational structure is a great weakness because it reverses what has made our denomination strong: the churches. When the Executive Committee or any other entity seeks to keep our institutions in a hierarchical structure where they are submissive to the Executive Committee, we have created a relationship that will not work. When our State Conventions rule over the churches, we have created a situation that will not work. All of our institutions, mission boards, and agencies exist because of the churches. They exist to help the churches carry out the mission of Christ.

The Cooperative Program and Southern Baptist identity does not seem to be a feature of most of the new and emerging churches today. They do their own missions and raise up their own ministers from within their congregations often bypassing seminary education. This may be a reaction to the perception of centralization and exclusive religious politics that leaves too many churches out of the loop. Control of the SBC belongs to the churches of the SBC. This seems to me to be less and less the case today as power cliques and denominational structures becomes more and more self-perpetuating.

What do you think is the greatest threat or challenge to the SBC?

We must find a way to place our churches at the top of the convention food chain. Otherwise, more and more divisions among us occur among us. Simply keeping the churches together in some common commitment may be the most significant challenge we face. The mega-church model or even the purpose-driven model is not what will keep us together. Our denomination has been and continues to be a denomination of small to large churches, but not mega-churches. We need to find a way to help these churches which are the backbone of the SBC become more involved in the SBC. We need leaders who will listen to and respond to these types of churches.

What do you believe is the greatest opportunity for the SBC right now?

To strengthen churches and to help new church starts develop an appreciation for the commonly held Baptist beliefs (i.e. Baptist Faith and Message). If this can occur, we can continue to build a strong and fruitful discipleship and mission’s ministry in the future. If new churches choose to bypass the denomination, our history, and our proven cooperative methods of working together, we will experience more and more splintering within our ranks. We have the opportunity to reach the world with the Gospel in a greater way than ever before. However, unless we know who we, know the Word, and find a way to reach the world without compromising the truth, we will likely miss our great opportunity.

From the foundation of a sure Biblical and Baptist identity, we have almost unsurpassed opportunities to reach people all over the world. However, we must first reach America.

Some have suggested that the SBC will decline in the future. What is your assessment of the future of the SBC?

The SBC is already declining in many areas. Within the next 20 years we are likely to see many older and aging congregations cease to exist. Some believe that the Baby boomers may be the last generation to experience a large and powerful denomination.

Unless we are able to reach and disciple the 40 and under age group, we will see a slow progression downward. I believe and I pray there will be a committed movement to reach this age group without compromising Biblical doctrine. That endeavor will be a tremendous task requiring the wisdom of God. It will require real prayer. I hope we will utilize new methodologies in the future but preach, teach, and live the same truth. I hope our future will find us growing strong churches rather than simply building attendance numbers. In the future, I believe we need to have membership requirements and become more concerned about the kind of Christians we have in our churches rather than the number of members on our church rolls.

Some decline may actually be a sign of integrity and health. When we boast about having over 16 million members and yet less than 8 million are actually involved in church, something is wrong. In the future our numbers may decline some, but our spiritual vitality could actually increase.

What would you say to a pastor who is considering leaving the SBC?

I would first listen to him so I could try and understand what he is thinking and feeling. Depending on what I learn from that exchange, I would counsel him to leave the SBC only if he had the witness of the Spirit in His heart and the confirmation of the Word in his life.
It may be that a pastor who is considering leaving simply needs encouragement to stay. He may need to know more about our history and heritage or about the many ways we can minister the Word to the World through Cooperative Program Ministries. He may even have an unrealistic view of the new denomination or church he is moving toward. In the end, the decision to leave would, of course, his to make.

The resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC has been controversial for some. What is your perspective on this resurgence?

I believe it is a natural response to a return to a belief in an inerrant Bible. It is in many measurable ways a return to the theology of most of our founding fathers. I personally do not call myself a Calvinist although I do believe in the doctrines of grace. My pastor of history is Charles Haddon Spurgeon who was also called a Calvinist. I want to be like Spurgeon in this regard: He knew doctrine and he was committed to evangelism and missions. Someone once asked him how he could give a call for people to believe since he believed in the doctrines of grace. Spurgeon replied that if God had painted a yellow stripe down the back of the elect, he would walk up and down the streets of London pulling out shirt tails. When he found a yellow stripe, he would witness to that person. Since God had not done this, Spurgeon said he would continue saying, “Whosoever will, let him come!”

The key issue in our convention is not the teachings of one single man (like John Calvin) but the doctrine contained in God’s Word. The issue is whether or not we get our beliefs from a genuine and careful study of the Word of God. For me and many of my friends in the ministry, our beliefs do not originate with John Calvin but in the Scriptures themselves.

The issue of elder rule has been controversial in many churches. What is your perspective on elder rule, Baptist Church polity and ecclesiology?

I believe a local Baptist church is autonomous. If they want elders, they can certainly have elders. My understanding of the Scripture equates pastor, elder, bishop as the same person. Baptists, by and large, have had a pastor or pastoral staff and deacons. Quite often, the pastoral staff functions as the administrators and leaders of the congregation while the deacon body serves a servant leaders meeting the legitimate needs of the membership. Frankly, in practical terms, I believe pastors (pastoral staff) are elders.

Elders/pastors do not rule. They lead. They are servants of Jesus who lead according to the teachings of the Word. Ultimately the final decision lies with the congregation itself as a body.

What is your perspective of the emergent church movement?

As I understand the term, the emergent church is an attempt to build a postmodern church for a postmodern culture. Apparently, different streams of thought and belief flow into this hard to define movement. I believe there are some common traits, however. Experience trumps theology. Dialog replaces dogma. Conversation is valued over preaching. Change is to be embraced while tradition is relegated to the past. The authority of the Bible is virtually disregarded while the feelings of the individual are highly regarded.

I believe it is a movement dependent on the culture. As the culture changes, it changes with it. While there is some merit in this approach (no one can live in a culture and remain unaffected by it) there is also danger. G. Campbell Morgan once observed, “It is not the job of the preacher to catch the spirit of the age but to correct it.”

At its heart, the emergent church movement, I believe, is a reaction against what its adherents believe is the failure of the institutional or established churches.

Institutional and established churches do need to make some changes to reach out to the culture surrounding us. However, we must reach out with the Word of God and not with relational, emotional, or even environmental substitutes.

What would say is the most significant theological issue confronting Baptists today?

The conservative resurgence has led us to a place where we accept the Bible as God’s inspired and inerrant Word. Now, the issue that is before us is how we interpret that Word of Truth. Biblical exposition is woefully needed in the pulpits of our churches. Some of the practices that were flatly opposed during the resurgence are now being revisited by another generation of Baptists. Many of the newer Baptists of today sound much like the moderate Baptists of 25-30 years ago. I believe the most significant issue is again the doctrine of infallibility and inerrancy. Any interpretation that disregards the Bible as truth without any mixture of error is bound to be flawed.

Calvinism is a term that the media and many others want to be the major theological issue among Southern Baptists. It may become the issue. If it becomes our major point of theological focus, let us pray it gets in that position because we have fervently prayed and diligently studied the Word. Then, again, if we do that, Calvinism will probably not be a major issue at all. What we believe must be based in the Word of God. How we interpret the Word must be centered in our belief that it is indeed the Word of God.

Interview with Founders Executive Director Tom Ascol

Tom Ascol has served as Pastor of Grace Baptist Church since 1986. Prior to moving to Florida he served as pastor and associate pastor of churches in Texas. He has a BS degree in sociology from Texas A&M University (1979) and has also earned the MDiv and PhD degrees from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Ft. Worth, Texas. His major field of study was Baptist Theology. He taught two years as an adjunct professor for New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary in their SW FLorida extension.

Tom serves as the Executive Director of Founders Ministries, an organization committed to reformation and revival in local churches. He edits the Founders Journal, a quarterly theological publication of Founders Ministries, and has written numerous articles and contributed to several books. He regularly preaches and lectures at various conferences throughout the United States and other countries. He also authors the Founders Ministries Blog.

1. What do you see as the greatest strength of the Southern Baptist Convention right now?


The greatest strength of the SBC that I see is our unashamed declaration that the Bible is God's infallible, inerrant Word of God. Without commitment to this formal principle of reformation, the many other good things that the SBC does would be undermined and eventually eroded completely. The convention has in place a wonderful structure that is ready to engage many spheres of culture through various ministries (NAMB, IMB, ERLC, Seminaries, LifeWay, etc.). For that structure to serve kingdom purposes as faithfully as it ought, the doctrinal and spiritual advanced that have been taken place over the last 25 years must be strengthened.


2. What do you see as the greatest weakness or problem in the Southern Baptist Convention right now?


Our failure to take seriously the sufficiency of Scripture. We have affirmed the authority of Scripture, but we are far from believing or teaching that it is enough to guide and form life and ministry in the church, as 2 Timothy 3:16-17 teaches. Too many of our leaders seem satisfied to stop with the recovery of the formal principle of reformation and appear to be uninterested or unwilling to recover the material principle--the actual content of the Bible's message. Consequently, in many ways the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been lost and left unrecovered in many sectors of denominational life. If this is true, and I believe that it is, then it does not finally matter how loudly we proclaim our commitment to inerrancy if we remain unwilling to recover and reaffirm the biblical Gospel.

3. What do you think is the greatest threat or challenge to the Southern Baptist Convention right now?


Pride. If you believe what many prominent SBC pastors and denominational leaders say then you would conclude that Southern Baptists are the greatest group in the kingdom of God. That kind of attitude is a breeding ground for a myriad of spiritually fatal diseases. Two of the most potent of these are the inability to be self-critical and spiritual presumption.

Too many of our conservative leaders in the SBC have repeatedly demonstrated over the last ten years an unwillingness to receive criticism of anything related to "the cause" (the conservative resurgence). Questions and warnings from fellow conservatives have been dismissed as disloyalty or worse. Too often pragmatic responses have been offered for actions which, according to the Bible, are inexcusable.

This mentality further calcifies the deadly assumption that we all know and agree on what the Bible means when it mentions the Gospel, conversion, and church. Many Southern Baptists see no need to reexamine these basic, essential ingredients of the Bible's message, yet it is overwhelmingly clear that the vast majority of our church members in the SBC have little if any biblical understanding of these life-and-death matters. Indeed, simply raising this issue is judged by some leaders to be a waste of time--time that could be better spent spreading the Gospel, seeking conversions and growing churches. But if we are mistaken in what these spiritual realities are, then it is disastrous to go on promoting them as if we are doing the Lord's will. I have written more on this here: http://www.founders.org/FJ63/editorial.html


4. What do you believe is the greatest opportunity for the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

The opportunity to repent of our pride and blatant disobedience to God's inerrant, infallible Word. When over half of our church members cannot be found and our Lord's teachings in Matthew 18:15-18 and Paul's instructions to the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 5 are blatantly ignored by the overwhelming majority of our churches and pastors, the table is set for an honest admission of our desperate condition and a sincere expression of repentance.

5. Some have suggested that the Southern Baptist Convention is likely to decline in the near future. What is your assessment of the future of the Southern Baptist Convention?

I am fearful that it might become increasingly irrelevant to more and more churches and pastors. I do not think that this is inevitable, and I sincerely hope that it does not happen, but I do fear that the current trajectory we are on may lead us that way. God has given the SBC some leaders who are models of faithfulness in spirituality and integrity. If those leaders do not speak up plainly and loudly in calling for honesty and integrity throughout our denominational structure, then I do not think that we will find the spiritual strength to deal with our problems in a humble, Christ-honoring way.

I am hopeful, however, that there is a growing number of pastors and churches who recognize that the SBC, for all of its good and potential usefulness, has some serious problems which must be addressed if we are going to move forward into the future with making a positive impact for Christ's kingdom. If those with these convictions can be united to deal honestly and forthrightly with our denominational problems, then there is reason to hope that our future can be full of greater blessing than we have seen at any time in our past. If the serious problems are ignored, I think the SBC will simply decline into kingdom irrelevancy.


6. What would you say to a young (or old) pastor who is considering leaving the SBC? Why should they stay a Southern Baptist?


I don't think everyone should be Southern Baptist. However, I am concerned by the number of pastors (especially younger pastors) who are talking about leaving the SBC. From my vantage point what seems to be motivating many of them is the lack of spiritual authenticity that they see in many of the denominational programs, promotions and emphases. Here is what I typically say to someone who is thinking of leaving the SBC. "Ask yourself two questions: 'What can I do tomorrow that I cannot do today if I were to leave the SBC tonight?' Then, 'What can I do today that I could not do tomorrow if I left the SBC tonight?' When the number of positive answers that can be given to the first outnumber the positive answers to the second, it is time to leave. Until then, hang in there and work for reformation and revival."

7. The resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC has been a controversial issue in some ways. What is your perspective on the resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC?

The resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC is a type of theological homecoming. It is beyond dispute that the theological consensus of the SBC our our founding in 1845 was Calvinistic. As Timothy George has noted, every one of the 293 delegates who attended the constitutional meeting in August, Georgia in 1845 came from churches or associations that held to the Second London Confession of Faith (in some cases in its Charleston or Philadelphia expressions). In the early decades of the 20th century that consensus broke down and soon was overtaken by strong emphasis on pragmatism, perhaps most notably demonstrated in the "Million more in '54" campaign. The shift of theological commitments from the center of our identity to the periphery resulted in denominational amnesia. We simply forget who we were.

The conservative resurgence was the first stage in our denomination's doctrinal recovery. With the reestablishment of a clear confession of Scripture's full authority as the Word of God written, it is inevitable that there should follow a recovery of the message of Scripture as historically understood by those who founded the Southern Baptist Convention. That is what is happening. We are witnessing a return to the faith of our fathers.

I see that as a very healthy thing, though, just as was true with the conservative resurgence, it has not been without its problems. Some have used their newly recovered understanding of the doctrines of grace as an excuse to become pugilistic in their treatment of those with whom they disagree. Others have mistakenly allowed their recognition of the absolute sovereignty of God to diminish their full commitment to the absolute responsibility of people. Still others have regarded commitment to truth as a license not to love. None of these are justified and all are to be roundly condemned as sinful. Fortunately, such follies have been a minority report among those who are returning to the evangelical Calvinism of our Southern Baptist forebears.

What is equally and perhaps even more troubling is the intensity and frequency of hostile opposition to those who have come to believe what James P. Boyce, John A. Broadus, P. H. Mell. W. B. Johnson, R. B. C. Howell and other founders taught and believed. Some denominational employees at every level have misrepresented the views of many of their fellow Southern Baptists when speaking against Calvinism. Occasionally these misrepresentations have taken the form of attacks and have resulted in stirring up considerable trouble for pastors and members of local churches.

What I find most grievous and offensive are the inexcusable misrepresentations of historical and theological views on this subject that have come from many academicians in the SBC. Those is such positions should know better than simply to recite an old, erroneous party line about Calvinism. Fortunately, with the ready access to many sources of information today, church members and pastors no longer have to take theological and historical assertions as fact simply because they are cited by a reputed scholar. In fact, some supposed scholarship in this area has been exposed as being very suspect, at best.

Tom Nettles' newly revised book, By His Grace and For His Glory, forcefully demonstrates the preeminence of the doctrines of grace in our Southern Baptist heritage and convincingly argues for their biblical validity. His book, though first published more than 20 years ago, has never been seriously engaged much less refuted.

So I see the resurgence of the doctrines of grace in Southern Baptist life as a good thing and as a movement of God that is continuing to grow. I believe that it could well be the beginnings and foundation of the revival that we so desperately need.


8. The issue of elder rule has been controversial in many churches. What is your perspective on ruling elders as an expression of Baptist church polity and ecclesiology?

I don't think that Baptist churches should necessarily have "ruling elders" per se. I do believe in a plurality of elders, as did many Baptists in history. However, Baptists--especially Southern Baptists--have never made this a test of fellowship. I would not want to make it that either. A plurality of leadership in a church is a good thing, as well as being supported in the New Testament. This form of church government is completely consistent with congregationalism and need not become a form of Presbyterianism. It saves the church from the pastor becoming a little pope, and it also saves the pastor from becoming any church member's puppet.

9. What is your perspective on the emergent church movement?

As I understand it, it is far from a monolithic movement. Many of the things that they are protesting, I also protest (a dead liberalism and superficial or legalistic Fundamentalism). But much of what I see being proposed as the cure strikes me as being worse than the disease.


10. What would you say is the most significant theological issue confronting Southern Baptists in this generation?


Well, as I have already said, I believe that in many respects we have lost the Gospel. Nothing is more important than that. Perhaps the most significant, observable manifestation of that for us is the large number of unregenerate church members that we have. In that sense, ecclesiology will be a vitally important issue for Southern Baptists to confront honestly in the next few years. We must be willing to define simply what constitutes a church on the authority of the New Testament. Then we must apply that definition to forty-two thousand assemblies that we call churches within the SBC.

John Dagg, the first writing Southern Baptist systematic theologian said that when discipline leaves a church, Christ goes with it. If he is correct, then many of our churches are in far worse shape than most of us want to admit. Jesus' words to the churches in Asia from Revelation 2-3 give me reason to remain hopeful, however. He is a patient High Priest and, as Lord and Head of the church, has promised to build His church throughout history until the new heavens and new earth appear.

Meet Jim Richards...

Dr. Jim Richards serves as founding Executive Director of the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention. A native of Louisiana, Richards earned the M.Div. degree from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary and the D.Min. degree from Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary. He has been honored as a Distinguished Alumnus by both seminaries. Before coming to SBTC, Richards served for 21 years as a pastor in Louisiana, and then as a Director of Missions in Bentonville, Arkansas. He is a popular preacher, and has helped guide SBTC to unprecedented success. The SBTC will be hosting the Southern Baptist Convention in San Antonio this month.

Interview with Jim Richards

1. What do you see as the greatest strength of the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

The vast number of people in the churches who love the Lord Jesus with all of their hearts provides the greatest strength of our convention. While there are many challenges, Southern Baptists still have a wonderful resource in tender hearts surrendered to God’s will.

2. What do you see as the greatest weakness or problem in the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

Voices of criticism seem to be getting more attention than they should. While injustices call for prophets, problems should be dealt with in a Christ-like spirit. Disagreements should be handled in Christian dialogue, not derogatory accusations.

3. What do you think is the greatest threat or challenge to the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

The greatest challenge for the present is to provide for the future. Cultural shifts in attitudes about denominations have influenced the current emerging generation of leadership. There is an ignorance of, ambivalence about or antagonism against the Cooperative Program. Advocates other than denominational employees must testify about the quality investment for missions and ministry provided in the Cooperative Program.

4. What do you believe is the greatest opportunity for the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

Southern Baptists could provide the leadership for the Evangelical community. While Evangelical Ecumenism is a threat to Baptist Distinctiveness, Southern Baptists can seek a spiritual awakening without compromising our identity. Let us give a call to all who share Baptist Distinctives to join us in touching North America and the World.

5. Some have suggested that the Southern Baptist Convention is likely to decline in the near future. What is your assessment of the future of the Southern Baptist Convention?

This may be correct if you count nickels and noses. Our church rolls are bloated with non-attendees and unbelievers. We are not as large as we say we are. I would not view a more accurate reporting of numbers as a weakness but a strength. If God does not move upon us with a spiritual awakening, revival or whatever you want to call it, we will decline. The future of the SBC is as bright as the promises of God.

6. What would you say to a young (or old) pastor who is considering leaving the SBC? Why should they stay a Southern Baptist?

There are two reasons a person should be a Southern Baptist. Although the SBC is not a confessional fellowship, there is confidence in what is being taught in seminaries classes and presented on the mission field. Secondly, there is no greater funding vehicle than the Cooperative Program for missions and ministry. When an affinity group cranks up, they devise a system very similar to CP to focus on a particular type of ministry. Minimizing bureaucracy is a good goal, but oftentimes there are gaps in accountability, quality or security. No other evangelical denomination has the strength of the SBC coupled with the doctrinal integrity.

7. The resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC has been a controversial issue in some ways. What is your perspective on the resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC?

I think it is historical amnesia to pretend that most of the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention were not Calvinists. As someone said, all Southern Baptists are Calvinists it is just a matter to what degree. The threat to the SBC is not Calvinism but “Hyper-Calvinism”. Adding an “S” for soul-winning on the end of TULIP cures the concern about Calvinism. The question is what kind of Calvinist will be involved in SBC. If they are like, Broadus, Boyce, Graves, Dagg and Johnson we will be fine. If they get more evangelistic about Calvinism than Jesus, the SBC will have a problem.

8. The issue of elder rule has been controversial in many churches. What is your perspective on ruling elders as an expression of Baptist church polity and ecclesiology?

The New Testament clearly teaches congregational autonomy. No one person or group can lord over God’s flock. However, as long as a congregation retains the right to choose leadership, then delegation of authority seems acceptable. In a lot of cases, when a group (lay and\or full-time vocational) is selected it becomes the final authority. The church should always have recourse never surrendering their autonomy.

9. What is your perspective on the emergent church movement?

Ed Stetzer has characterized the emergent church well. He divides the movement into three groups, Relevants, Revisionists, and Reconstructionists. The first group is faithful to doctrinal truth but seeks to be more contemporary in their approach to reach people. The Revisionists are a mixed bag. While experimenting with various approaches to doing church, some are abandoning doctrinal truth. The final group are in doctrinal error and do not present the gospel truthfully.

Being biblically faithful is non-negotiable. Being culturally relevant is fine. Being culturally immersed is not. When being relevant causes you to jettison biblical positions, then you are on the wrong side of the emergent church movement.


10.What would you say is the most significant theological issue confronting Southern Baptists in this generation?

Biblical Sufficiency is a term that may take on different meanings. Let me give you mine. The Bible is sufficient to lead us into all truth. Accepting the inerrancy of the scriptures enables us to find the biblical application for every doctrine and practice.

Biblical sufficiency is the umbrella for a number of issues. What we believe about the nature of the church, evangelism, missions, and practical Christianity must all be based on the Word of God.

The church is a body of baptized (immersion) believers covenanted together to carry out the teachings of Christ and His Word. When we believe in Biblical sufficiency we will accept that a New Testament Church will have certain characteristics:

It will teach salvation by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. This will include security of the believer. There are many fine Christian groups who love the Lord and are going to heaven but they do not affirm the security of the believer. That group forfeits the right to be called a New Testament Church.
Baptism by immersion of believers only. This is a church ordinance. The Great Commission was not given to every believer but to the church. Otherwise any pre-teen girl who is saved could baptize her newly converted friend in the swimming pool.
The Lord Supper is non-sacerdotal. There is no saving grace in the elements. The Supper is a church ordinance.
The church is autonomous as a Theo-democracy. The body may empower smaller groups or individuals to make decisions, the church retains the ultimate decision making ability.
The Bible is the final rule of faith and practice. This means that no extra-Biblical revelation takes precedent over the Word of God. All experiences are filtered through the grid of the Bible.

When we believe in Biblical Sufficiency we will seek to win people to Jesus Christ. Different methods should be employed to win people to Christ. I believe we need to put as many different hooks in the water as necessary in missions and evangelism. What is missing is a real belief in the eternal damnation of the ever-living soul.

Practical Christianity is based upon principles from the Word of God. The use of alcohol as a beverage, gambling and viewing lewd sexual content as entertainment are clearly in violation of principles from the scriptures.

We say we believe the Bible. The world is watching to see if we are going to live it.

Meet Wade Burleson....

Wade Burleson has served as Pastor of Emmanuel Baptist Church in Enid, Oklahoma since 1992. A graduate of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Burleson served as President of the Baptist General Convention of Oklahoma from 2003-2005. Burleson has sometimes stirred controversy, however, as a trustee of the International Mission Board, and in issues he has raised on his “Grace and Truth to You” blog site. He was a signer of the Memphis Declaration, and is sometimes cited as a leader among younger pastors known as the Reformed Relevants.

Q & A with Wade Burleson

1. What do you see as the greatest strength of the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

The Southern Baptist Convention came into existence with a desire to take the gospel to the nations. Some are under the mistaken belief that Southern Baptists separated from Northern Baptists over the issue of slavery, but in reality, Baptists in the south did not like the mission boards excluding God-called missionaries who were slave owners. Missions and placing missionaries on the fields ‘white unto harvest’ drove the founders of our convention, and though our views of ‘slavery’ ultimately changed, our passion for missions has remained the same. Without a doubt, our evangelical zeal evidence through a passion for the glory of God through missions is our greatest strength.

2. What do you see as the greatest weakness or problem in the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

Similar to the early 1840’s we are confronted by a desire in the hearts of some to exclude certain Southern Baptists from cooperative missions and ministry based upon opinions, beliefs and convictions that go far beyond the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message. This has been called ‘the narrowing of the parameters of cooperation’ and though it may have been occurring for many years in the SBC, only recently has it come to my attention. The removal from missionary service those Southern Baptist missionary candidates who affirm the BFM 2000 but possess a private prayer language, the removal of highly educated and acclaimed Southern Baptist professors from our institutions of higher learning simply because they are women, and the attempt to make every Southern Baptist conform to a particular doctrinal interpretation on non-essential issues prior to trustee service at our agencies are just three examples of this narrowing. There will be Southern Baptists from now until Jesus comes who disagree on soteriology, ecclesiology, eschatology, church polity, and other areas of doctrine and theology not addressed by the BFM 2000. We are a convention built upon cooperation and the greatest weakness we have right now in the SBC is the quiet acquiescence of many to the demands of doctrinal conformity by a few leaders. In other words, too many Southern Baptists are not paying enough attention to what is going in our convention. But that weakness is now being addressed and soon the participation level in the SBC by younger leaders and pastors will significantly increase.

3. What do you think is the greatest threat or challenge to the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

The greatest threat we face as Southern Baptists is losing sight of the gospel. The gospel is the story about Christ, God’s and David’s Son, who died and was raised and is established as Lord. We as Southern Baptists must join together to proclaim the good news that God's Kingdom has come in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, the Lord and Messiah, in fulfillment of the Word of God. When we become focused on demanding conformity from Southern Baptists on those doctrinal issues that are not essentials of our faith, we lose sight of the gospel and become a religious organization focused on ourselves, rather than the people of God who put our emphasis on others.

4. What do you believe is the greatest opportunity for the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

We have the opportunity to make several important decisions at our conventions in the next few years that will send a resounding message to the world that Southern Baptists are focused on spreading the good news of Jesus Christ, and we are united for that purpose. I think it will be refreshing to issue a statement reflecting that for which we stand together, rather than multiple pronouncements about those things we are against.

5. Some have suggested that the Southern Baptist Convention is likely to decline in the near future. What is your assessment of the future of the Southern Baptist Convention?

The SBC will decline both numerically and financially in the future if we don’t begin asking the question ‘how do we keep the young men and women committed to the cooperative mission efforts of the SBC?’ We are losing young people by hundreds to other non-denominational, evangelical conservative churches. Some are young, God-called pastors and missionaries who are writing to me and saying that they are not sure if they ‘fit’ in the SBC anymore. If Southern Baptist leaders don’t get clued in to what it will take to reach a young generation of Southern Baptists we will wake up one day and ask ourselves where all the people have gone. This is the age of communication. The old method of doing business in the Southern Baptist Convention is gone. It’s time we recognize that this new generation demands information, transparency and accountability. We are poised as a convention to meet all three demands, but it takes Southern Baptist leaders to push in this direction. I am personally optimistic about the future of the SBC. My life has been invested in Southern Baptist work and I believe we know how to adopt to meet the challenges we face. It is not always easy, but it can be done.

6. What would you say to a young (or old) pastor who is considering leaving the SBC? Why should they stay a Southern Baptist?

I have said it many, many times over the past year – “Don’t leave! There is far too much good taking place, and with your help, the future will only be brighter for the SBC.” I have been to several regional headquarters of the International Mission Board this past year, and the excellent work that is being accomplished around the world is really hard to comprehend by a person who has never been on the field. Our church will be increasing our Cooperative Program percentage this year. We believe what is happening in the SBC, and we are excited to be a part. Though many think of us as a people who always fight, when I think of the SBC I think of people who always cooperate. In fact, even those issues which have thrust me, unwillingly, into the center of controversy this past year, each of them has been because of a desire on my part to narrow the parameters of cooperation. I say to anyone who is thinking of leaving the SBC – “Don’t! – Our best days are ahead, and you can be a vital part of our cooperative ministry.”

7. The resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC has been a controversial issue in some ways. What is your perspective on the resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC?

I am not nearly as concerned about Calvinism as I am legalism. Our church is full of one, two, three, four and five point Calvinists. We all get along, love each other, and work together in ministry. Our church is free of the curse of legalism and the fellowship is sweet, the cooperation is great, and the results are amazing. We have baptized over one hundred people each of the last four years. We are starting our third Sunday morning service and are now reaching close to seventeen hundred people each week in small groups. All this with what some might say ‘Calvinistic’ leadership. We never make this system of theology a matter of fellowship. Years ago Dr. Hershel Hobbs and I wrote editorials for the Baptist Messenger, the state Baptist paper of Oklahoma, regarding the resurgence of Calvinism. In my editorial made it very clear that I, unlike Charles Spurgeon, never wanted to be called a “Calvinist” simply because I think there are too many misperceptions of this system of doctrine, it puts an emphasis on a man rather than Christ, and it lessons the focus on the gospel. My emphasis in ministry is the gospel, and though I think it is difficult to clearly articulate the gospel without an understanding of the great doctrines of grace, I am convinced that you don’t have to be a systematic theologian to have an impact on a lost world. So, to answer your question, I’m not sure that the ‘resurgence’ of Calvinism has had any negative effects on the SBC, it certainly has not at our church.

8. The issue of elder rule has been controversial in many churches. What is your perspective on ruling elders as an expression of Baptist church polity and ecclesiology?

Our church is congregational for major decisions, but we are led by a group of pastors or shepherds, some who are full time paid pastors and some who are not. I definitely believe the Bible supports a plurality of pastoral leadership, but I am not convinced that what you must call them ‘elders’ or ‘bishops’ or even ‘pastors.’ Also, most would not consider us an ‘elder’ led church because we have congregational votes on major decisions and place all important documents in the hands of members for proper accountability. I would say we have a blended approach in this area of church polity.

9. What is your perspective on the emergent church movement?

I frankly am not familiar enough with the movement to make a comment regarding it.

10. What would you say is the most significant theological issue confronting Southern Baptists in this generation?

Ecclesiology.

I personally believe there is an attempt by some to narrowly define ‘the church,’ far beyond the definition of the Bible and our confessions. When that happens there is always the danger of cooperative ministry suffering. Why? When somebody sets out to define what a ‘pure’ church is, and then tells you that you don’t have one, then there are attempts by those same people to separate from you. In other words, some will try to define who is, and who is not, a true Southern Baptist church, and then tell you --- you are not a part of one.

I believe that the decision of what a church should look like, according to the great Baptist tradition of local church autonomy, must be made by the church herself – and not outside influences.

Meet Morris H. Chapman

Dr. Morris H. Chapman serves as the president and chief executive officer of the Southern Baptist Executive Committee, Nashville , Tennessee . Chapman previously served two terms as the president of the Southern Baptist Convention (1990-1992), along with several other prominent posts in SBC leadership. Chapman’s ministry experience includes over three decades of pastorates in SBC churches, including his thirteen-year run as senior pastor of the historic 7,700-member First Baptist Church of Wichita Falls, Texas. A native of Kosciusko , Mississippi , Chapman is a graduate of Mississippi College . Following college, Chapman earned both Master of Divinity and Doctor of Ministry degrees from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Dr. Chapman is married to Jodi, and they have two children and seven grandchildren.

Q&A with Morris H. Chapman

1. What do you see as the greatest strength of the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

The passion for, experience with, and funding of world missions has been and is the greatest strength of the Southern Baptist Convention. In Southern Baptist churches, God continues to stir the hearts of increasing numbers of church members of all ages to go wherever He leads to witness to the saving power of our Lord Jesus Christ. He has stirred the hearts of still others who remain at home to give joyfully and generously to world missions and our missionaries through the Cooperative Program.

Because of our strong biblical convictions, the world tends to characterize Southern Baptists as narrow-minded, unengaged in today’s culture, and apathetic to the world’s needs. Nevetheless, no denomination is better positioned to demonstrate the love of Christ and His power to save mankind than Southern Baptists.

2. What do you see as the greatest weakness or problem in the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

Our greatest weakness is the tendency to “defend” our faith with a degree of severe and unforgiving dogmatism that in part creates a negative view of the Convention and helps perpetuate the idea that we are little more than a denomination of prohibitions. The truth is, we do stand unapologetically against those things of the world that grieve the heart of God. We are stouthearted in our doctrinal convictions. Nevertheless, we should and we must seize the initiative to trumpet the wonder working power of Jesus Christ our Lord to the world.
Jesus was courageous and unafraid to challenge the most powerful of men who served other gods, but He also spent hours on end speaking the truth in love to the lost while assuring them their sins would be forgiven if they would trust in Him for their salvation. We are doing ourselves, our denomination, and our Lord an injustice if we let the world see only our dogmatism without seeing the love of Christ.

In the Convention there appears to be a growing fondness for casting stones at each other, judging one another, and building our reputations at the expense of others. A divisive culture has been sown among Southern Baptists that does not honor Christ when measured against the Word of God. His love for us conquered sin through the sacrifice of His own life. We are to be like Him. His expressions of righteous indignation while He was on earth were real, but rare.
He came to die for us and in so doing let mankind know that God loves the world, period. God’s wrath is the consequence of man’s insistence upon sin, disobedience, hatred, and bitterness. Jesus preached the reality of hell from a heart of love, not hatred. Among the brethren, He sowed seeds of love, not dissension.

3. What do you think is the greatest threat or challenge to the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

The greatest threat to the Southern Baptist Convention is bound inextricably to the greatest weakness of the Convention. I believe the greatest threat is the gradual deterioration of the collective heart that at one time beat steadily and strongly with a sacrificial love for Jesus and the unsaved. But that heartbeat seems to be weakening. When the heart stops beating, the Convention’s physical infrastructure, its wide-flung missions enterprise, its educational excellence, and its religious liberty defense will collapse with the flutter of falling dominoes.
A lessening of interest in cooperative missions and theological education among Southern Baptist pastors is a direct threat to the Convention’s long-term existence. The Convention is not hierarchical in its polity (government). The Convention is a network of churches that voluntarily bands together for the principal cause of world missions. This common commitment to missions is the primary reason the Baptist Faith and Message focuses only upon core beliefs of Southern Baptists. If we insist that every doctrinal nuance debated among Southern Baptists is a core belief, sooner or later, our missionary force will be depleted and the unsaved will be abandoned.
Our greatest challenge is, once again, to become a powerful spiritual force, empowered by the Holy Spirit, cooperating together and showing the world that Jesus lives! Although cooperation is not one of the doctrinal or missiological underpinnings of the Convention, it is an operational component based upon biblical principles that describes the methodological attitude and spirit with which we are to work together for God’s glory and the advancement of His Kingdom on earth. Cooperation in the Convention cannot be forced and at the same time be effective. The desire to cooperate is born of the heart. It is more than a willingness to cooperate. It is a matter of wanting to cooperate.

4. What do you believe is the great opportunity for the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

Our greatest opportunity is to prepare heart, soul, mind, and organizational infrastructure to revolutionize the world spiritually in the 21st Century. In the first three questions, I spoke about preparing the heart, soul, and mind. Now I will address the issue of organizational restructuring. While restructuring as a subject may seem somewhat trite and boring, don’t overlook the fact that savings in one area makes possible funding for another area of greater priority.
In 1997, upon the recommendation of the SBC Program and Structure Committee, Mark Brister, Chairman, the Southern Baptist Convention completely dissolved seven (7) agencies of the Southern Baptist Convention, reducing the total number of entities from 19 to 12. The Home Mission Board was the linchpin of the study. The legal entity known as the Home Mission Board was dissolved and an entirely new corporation named the North American Mission Board (NAMB) was formed bringing together the ministry assignments from the Home Mission Board, the Radio and Television Commission, and the Brotherhood Commission.
The magnitude of the committee’s assignment made it impossible to expect Southern Baptists to assimilate possible changes in all SBC entities at once. The decision to recommend no other changes was the result of deciding that the overwhelming nature of the assignment was too big to accomplish all at once.

The question now is, “What are the pressing needs in the Convention that would set us free to be more effective in the coming years?” Possibilities include (1) improving the flow of information from SBC entities to rank and file Southern Baptists, (2) developing a SBC national strategy for providing theological education to future pastors, missionaries, evangelists, associate ministers, and directors of missions, (3) planning and executing the most aggressive and successful church planting strategy ever seen in the United States, (4) extending a study of the SBC infrastructure to entities not previously studied in depth, and (5) encouraging state conventions to study their infrastructures with the intent of prioritizing ministries, dissolving any that are ineffective and inefficient, thus freeing a greater percentage of Cooperative Program funds to be forwarded to the SBC. Aggressive efforts to reach the 50-50% division of CP funds, a recommendation by our forebears upon granting the state conventions the assignment of being the collectors of CP receipts from the churches, I believe, would be applauded by the churches in every state convention.

5. Some have suggested that the Southern Baptist Convention is likely to decline in the near future? What is your assessment of the future of the Southern Baptist Convention?

The Southern Baptist Convention is a loose network of churches voluntarily bound together by basic Southern Baptist doctrine (Baptist Faith and Message) and a common commitment to fulfilling the Great Commission. The Convention shall not decline as long as the members of our churches continue to engage in soul-winning mission projects around the world. Neither shall the Convention decline due to any failure on the part of our churches or Convention if we continue to stand courageously upon the Word of God and obediently and courageously go to the ends of the earth proclaiming the Gospel. The decline will come only if we are distracted and encumbered by infighting about second and third-level issues; only if we continue to cover our eyes and ears while self-appointed political leaders wrestle for control of the Convention and attempt to unduly influence every major decision; and only if pastors of any given generation cease to lead their churches to see the worth of giving through the Cooperative Program to cooperative missions and theological education. It’s the choice of the churches. The choice of the pastors and the people who worship the King of Kings and Lord of Lords Sunday after Sunday. The churches are not in the hands of the Convention. The Convention is in the hands of the churches.

Q&A with Morris H. Chapman

6. What would you say to a young (or old) pastor who is considering leaving the SBC? Why should they stay a Southern Baptist?

The few older pastors that may consider leaving the Convention normally do so because they have been personally offended. I would guess that most of the time resolution is found and an older pastor decides to stay in the Convention. After all, his roots are here, his friends are here, and his calling is here. Someone has described those who have been Southern Baptist for a long time, “He is Southern Baptist born, Southern Baptist bred, and when he dies, he’ll be Southern Baptist dead.” An older pastor normally continues to work to improve his Convention rather than to leave it.

Occasionally, an older pastor will leave because his doctrinal beliefs have changed and that’s understandable. I fear that young pastors are tempted to leave before they have experienced all the ways God has blessed us through the years. We have a powerful history and heritage upon which to build the future. In fact, because the Convention is a network of churches rather than a denominational hierarchy, the Southern Baptist Convention has the potential to be thriving even if other denominations are dying or barely surviving.

For reasons known only to God, He continues to bless the Southern Baptist Convention, sometimes in spite of us and hopefully many times because of us. I believe God is waiting upon Southern Baptists to be convicted by 2 Chronicles 7:14. If we ever really come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the message sets our hearts spiritually ablaze simultaneously and collectively, I believe a Christ-centered, Bible-believing, God-honoring, soul-saving revival will sweep the United States. If this doesn’t happen, we will have failed to humble ourselves before the Lord and depend wholly upon Him in our weakness (Eph. 4:15). A natural characteristic of a young man is to be impatient. I pray pastors of all ages in our Convention will lead us to such a revolutionary spiritual awakening that Southern Baptists will shake the dust of petty politics and self-seeking aggrandizement from our feet and see what God can do through any one man who says, “I will obey you, Lord, and none other.”

7. The resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC has been a controversial issue in some ways. What is your perspective on the resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC?

The resurgence of Calvinism is largely a reaction against the shallowness of Baptist doctrinal instruction during the era of moderate-led seminaries coupled with a strong interconnection of the principle of sola scriptura (“scripture alone”) with Reformed doctrine during the Protestant Reformation. Since the principle of sola scriptura resurfaced during the inerrancy debates of the Conservative Resurgence, it is only logical that its relationship with Reformed doctrine would also emerge. An additional reason for the resurgence of Calvinism is that a wide-open Arminianism under the guise of Open Theism must be refuted. Generally, where a heresy surfaces its closest theological polar opposites will appear and gain a relatively wide following.
The Scriptures reveal numerous “antinomies” (apparent contradictions between two equally valid principles). For example, how can Jesus be fully human and fully divine? How can Scripture be fully the Word of God and a work to which we must give all diligence? Similarly, how can salvation be totally an act of God, independent of human means, and a human response to a divine initiative? Calvinism, drawing heavily on a logical system of thought, seeks to address these questions through the lens of Divine Sovereignty.
The resurgence of Calvinism is both to be expected as a historical reality that surges in popularity every few generations and as a healthy conversation about the sovereignty of God in comparison to the responsibility of man.
One danger is that pastors are tempted to accept church pastorates in churches that are not Calvinistic, and then strive to drive them into the Calvinistic camp, thereby destroying an otherwise strong and healthy church. Another danger is that the truly warm-hearted, “evangelical” Calvinists often are misunderstood by second-generation successors, potentially resulting in a decline in evangelism and missions. As long as the conversations can remain cordial and warm-hearted, we always have been able to work together for the missionary, educational, and benevolent needs of the Convention and the world.
The sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man both are taught in the Bible. Both are necessary elements in the salvation experience. A healthy tension (an antinomy) exists in the Bible with regard to these two important biblical truths. Both are present in the salvation experience. Man is often tempted to design a theological theory in light of a biblical antinomy in order to clarify what God is trying to say. Man’s system will be inferior to God’s system now and forever. Why is it so difficult to accept from God what we cannot fully explain? After all, He didn’t begin to tell us everything He knows, but what we need to know to be redeemed and live righteously.

8. The issue of elder rule has been controversial in many churches. What is your perspective on ruling elders as an expression of Baptist church polity and ecclesiology?

The concept of elder rule is based upon the interpretation of a single verse in 1Timothy 5 that is not a clear and compelling interpretation. The mention of “elder rule” is not accompanied by an explanation that compels the church to adopt elder rule. On the other hand, Baptists have historically interpreted the data of Scripture to view the three terms pastor/elder/bishop as an interchangeable way of expressing three facets of one office, serving under the authority of the local church. Such an argument is biblically compelling. You may wish to read the article recently posted at http://www.morrischapman.com/article.asp?id=65.
The term, “ruling elders,” in my opinion, is a contradiction to congregational rule, the practice found in most Southern Baptist churches. Changing the terminology to “leading” elders does not change the practical outcome. An elder system of government cannot effectively co-exist with congregational rule in a Southern Baptist church for an indefinite period of time.
Regardless of good intentions, the introduction of elder rule in a typical Southern Baptist church will soon replace, not enhance congregational rule. Elder rule dilutes the Pastor’s leadership as the visionary leader. Elder rule has the potential to cause a pastor to believe he has dictatorial authority with no accountability to the congregation. When this happens, it is a recipe for disaster both for the pastor and the church.

A number of pastors, especially first-time pastors, are accepting invitations to become pastor of a Southern Baptist church although mistakenly underestimating the importance of congregational rule and its importance in the life of that church. I would caution pastor search committees to examine closely a pastor’s doctrinal beliefs, especially on those issues that seem to be bubbling to the surface of debate in the Convention at any given time. I would encourage all pastors to get to know your people over a period of time and earn their trust before you begin making drastic changes. This is especially true when the change has the force of doctrine.
I would dare offer one other word of counsel to young pastors. The people you pastor are not perfect, but don’t forget, neither is the pastor. Love them and lead them, but don’t drive them or force them. When we preach the “unsearchable riches of Christ” God will stir their hearts and prepare them to accomplish the vision He has given you. Above all don’t abuse your calling by preaching at people who have offended you. God’s Spirit brings conviction, not your anger or bitterness. In fact, rid yourself of any wrongful spirit before you enter the pulpit. Ultimately, you may need to engage a person in serious conversation about a matter, but don’t lecture that person from the pulpit. One great freedom in preaching a sermon series through a book of the Bible is that the pastor cannot be accused of “choosing” a Scripture passage for the primary purpose of preaching to a disgruntled church member or members. The tendency to do so may be partially responsible for driving the younger generations to believe that preaching topical sermons is the better way to connect with the present culture than preaching expository sermons.

9. What is your perspective on the emergent church movement?

Most Southern Baptists remain uninformed about the emergent church paradigms that are, well, “emerging” presently in North America. Before reaching ultimate conclusions about all aspects of the emerging church paradigms, we need to examine the concept and determine if any new methods have merit. We need to remember that all emerging churches are not the same. In fact, all younger, emergent, and emerging pastors are not to be considered one and the same. For that matter, the terms younger, emergent, and emerging are not necessarily synonymous with each other. The Southern Baptist Convention has many fine younger pastors who lead their churches differently than we did in earlier generations and yet they are strongly committed to the inerrancy of God’s Word and have a spirit of love and loyalty to our Lord Jesus Christ and the Southern Baptist Convention.

As in every movement, large and small, radicals and extremists exists and they are among the emergent church crowd of today. They embrace heretical beliefs, employ aberrant practices in worship, and preach a diluted Gospel. Such undisciplined and unprincipled behavior will not usher in the next great awakening in America and likely will hinder many from knowing Christ as their personal Savior.

We have the obligation to know who’s who among the emergents crowd lest we condemn all by condemning a few. We should become knowledgeable about the emergent church and reserve judgment for those whose actions and words prove them to be heretical in their faith and practice. We should be careful not to speak falsely against those who are honestly trying to find God-honoring methods more suitable for reaching this generation of unsaved for Christ. And we certainly must be careful about condemning a younger pastor simply because his methods are innovative. My prayer is that God will give the people and their pastors spiritual wisdom in the application of their enormous creativity.

If emergent pastors are experimenting with preaching other than the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, eventually they will find themselves bereft of power. Large crowds for a season can be quite intoxicating and give the false impression that God is blessing. The fact is that the Bible is our road map to salvation and sanctification, righteousness and holiness, missions and evangelism, and nothing teaches people God’s Word in a brief period of worship each week like an expository sermon. When a pastor preaches and teaches God’s Word his people never have to wonder if they are simply hearing what he thinks compared to hearing what God thinks.
Some younger Southern Baptist pastors are insisting that the consumption of alcoholic beverages is not prohibited in the Bible. While the Bible never says that a drink of wine is a sin, it is filled with principles for living a pure life as a testimony to what Christ did for us on the Cross (e.g. Romans 12:2). The Bible tells us we are set apart and that we are a peculiar people. Why? For the purpose of being seen as different from the world’s crowd. Rather than argue the finer points of biblical interpretation, why would we not pray, “Dear Lord Jesus, there are some things I will not do, though there be no biblical injunction per se against them, because they are perceived to be an integral part of the world.” I am suggesting that while we live in the world, we are not to be of the world.

10. What would you say is the most significant theological issue confronting Southern Baptists in this generation?

The most significant theological issue confronting Southern Baptists and all evangelical groups is the sole sufficiency of Christ for salvation. In the future, when a tidal wave against Christ and Christ alone as the way of salvation threatens to sweep our witness off the face of the earth, I believe we will pinpoint this moment in history as the beginning of a rising tide. We have less time than we think to fortify our witness for the ridicule and disdain that will come first upon the organized church, make its way through the ranks of nominal Christians, and finally slam against the people who are guided daily by the Holy Spirit and whose only desire is to honor Christ and glorify the Father.

As a boy growing up in Mississippi attending a Southern Baptist church, I could not have imagined that to believe in the veracity of Scripture, especially the sufficiency of Christ, would ever thrust a person into a confrontation with individuals who would argue that there is more than one way to heaven. Already, the debate has erupted at the highest levels of intellectualism. Soon it’s coming to your community. When the tidal wave comes, those who have tried to keep one foot in the Kingdom and the other foot in the world are going to be shocked that their faith will not stand up under the barrage of ridicule. This reason alone is enough to cause us to fall on our faces before the Lord, confess our disobedience, and unashamedly profess to the world that He is our Savior and Lord.

Welcome!

We welcome you to the new Baptist Center for Theology and Ministry blogsite! Our hope is that this forum will be a beneficial tool for Baptist theologians, pastors, and staff members hoping to dialogue on issues pertaining to Baptist life. At the Baptist Center, it is our belief that theology should fuel the mission and ministry of our churches. We believe that theology is not an end in itself, but rather a means to energize the ministry of the local church.

This month, we are thrilled to have Dr. Ed Stetzer (NAMB) and Dr. Rick Lance (Alabama Baptist Convention) as our guest hosts for the month! Please read their insightful commentary on various aspects of SBC Life and respond by clicking on the COMMENT tab at the end of each question.

Click here to read Ed Stetzer's comments.
Click here to read Rick Lance's comments.

Towards a Missional Convention with Ed Stetzer

Meet Ed Stetzer...

Dr. Stetzer has planted churches in New York and Pennsylvania. He has trained church planters across the United States and on five continents. A former seminary professor and the former Nehemiah Project director of the North American Mission Board, Dr. Stetzer is now the director of research and missiology for NAMB.

Towards a Missional Confession....

Ed Stetzer is a fellow at the Baptist Center. He is challenging Southern Baptists to thing biblically and missiologically about their contexts as they do ministry. We recently heard his views about a variety of issues in SBC life (see below for our recent interview). He has agreed to discuss his most recent paper here. Please read the paper here or listen to the audio here: http://www.uu.edu/events/baptistidentity/schedule.htm

Ed is answering questions in this thread... please post here.
POST YOUR RESPONSES BY CLICKING ON THE "COMMENTS" LINK.

Ed Stetzer on the Greatest Strength and Greatest Weakness in Current SBC Life

1. What do you see as the greatest strength of the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

I actually see at least two “greatest” strengths.

First, I am greatly encouraged that Southern Baptists, as a convention, have made it clear where they stand on issues of scripture. Many younger pastors do not know how far things had gotten off track. I remember being taught at an SBC seminary that the Bible was corrupted by Greek philosophy. We have come a long way. Today, we have settled it in our faith statement—we believe the Bible to be inerrant and totally sufficient.

Second, I am glad to see a heart for missions. Southern Baptists have always been a mission-minded people, but recently Southern Baptists have exhibited a passion to go beyond learning and giving to missions. They have a growing desire to be involved in missions, not as an additional program of the local church, but as a significant part of their local church identity. Many thousands of Southern Baptists volunteer each year for mission projects in every corner of the world. The number of men and women committing their lives to serve as long term missionaries continues to grow at an all-time record pace. Our North American Mission Board just recorded its largest ever “Annie Armstrong” offering for North American Missions. All of this is good news.

2. What do you see as the greatest weakness or problem in the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

It seems that many people, including some leaders, are unsure what a Southern Baptist “is.” For some, being a Southern Baptist has meant being a part of a “church style” that includes everything from worship styles, church organization, ethnicity, and a common vocabulary of church terms. Instead, I see it as a shared theology, cooperation, and a passionate commitment to the Great Commission. If this “identity confusion” remains unchecked it will likely lead to growing conflict in the near future. A conflict such as that would weaken our mission efforts and likely lead to a further exodus of younger and more creative leaders (not to mention ethnics and others).

It is imperative for our Convention to come to an understanding of those essentials on which we agree in order that we might continue to work together. I recently wrote a blog on the BFM that encapsulates my thoughts on the subject. Click here if you are interested: http://missionalnetworkweb.com/blogs/ed_stetzers_blog/archive/2006/09/11/161.aspx

Ed Stetzer on the Greatest Challenge & Greatest Opportunity for the SBC Right Now

3. What do you think is the greatest threat or challenge to the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

Our greatest threat is division and the resulting fallout. It would be a tragedy—for which we would be held accountable to God—if, after the miracle of the conservative resurgence, we ended up not being able to cooperate together.

Among my greatest concerns is the fear that many churches will decide that partnership and identification with the SBC is not worth the conflict and bickering over non-essentials. One of the most common questions I am asked when I speak at non-denominational pastor events is, “Are you still SBC?“ And it is usually a question from someone who once was SBC, and still holds the theology, but does not want to be a part of us anymore. That is a great concern for me.

We need to find a way to connect people... and it is not by shaming them or yelling at them. People will be a part of the convention when three things happen:
1. They see the SBC as one of the most efficient missions engines in the world
2. The SBC IS, and continues to be, the most efficient missions engine in the world
3. They realize that the partnership with the SBC empowers their church to fulfill its missional calling

Those of us in denominational leadership need to both “communicate the value” and “increase the value” of our partnership. Communicating the value is perhaps easier, but we also need to ask, “How can we as denominational leaders make sure every penny and every volunteer is making the most difference.” One of the things I see positive at NAMB right now is that we are in a season of hard questions—asking, “What should we be doing (and not doing) that will help our churches reach North America for Christ?”

4. What do you believe is the greatest opportunity for the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

That goes back to the first question. The greatest opportunity right now is for us to take our commitment to the fidelity of scripture and begin to apply it as missionaries in our own communities while we continue to support missionaries doing so around the world. We have the two things that make it possible—a love for the Word and a love for missions. We just need to put them together and act like biblically faithful and culturally relevant missionaries right in our own communities. With the same passion we embrace the Word, we need to engage our world.

Ed Stetzer on the Future of the SBC

5. Some have suggested that the Southern Baptist Convention is likely to decline in the near future. What is your assessment of the future of the Southern Baptist Convention?

I think the Southern Baptist Convention is already in decline in many ways. We just don't recognize it because we have inflated numbers due to how we count. We have gradually lost track of at least 30% of the typical church as they no longer live near the church facility. Also, while our convention churches have remained relatively “flat” in attendance and baptisms have slightly declined, the population has grown tremendously. That’s decline.

First, there are not 16.2 million Southern Baptists. Truthfully, there are at least 8 million that we are not able to locate. There are 16.2 million people on our church roles and about 5 million of them go to church each week. Spurgeon was attributed with saying, “a faith that won’t get you to church on Sunday, likely won’t get you to heaven.”

Second, most of our churches are not thriving. Your NOBTS Leavell Center study did a good job pointing it out—89% of our churches are not growing through healthy evangelism. If almost 9 out of 10 of your churches are not reaching people evangelistically, that's decline—a drastic and dangerous decline.

Thirdly, the SBC is made up of churches—many of whom are doing quite well. But, it can also be said that the SBC really IS the Cooperative Program. It’s the way we work together and fund missions. The numbers show that churches are giving less to the CP every year. Most of our national leaders already know this but we don't talk about it much. The SBC is in decline because the churches are not as committed to cooperation through the Cooperative Program. Al Mohler put it this way in 2003:

"The large infrastructure of modern Southern Baptist life may not survive in the postmodern age. That decision will not be made by the executives of Southern Baptist agencies, nor by the executives of conventions and state conventions. That decision will eventually be made by churches and the churches will point us to that future… For the young generation the issue is this, ‘Is the Southern Baptist Convention the answer to a question anyone is asking?’”

Ed Stetzer on Staying in the SBC

6. What would you say to a young (or old) pastor who is considering leaving the SBC? Why should they stay a Southern Baptist?

I would tell them, “don't.” As a matter of fact, I just wrote an email to a young pastor of a well known megachurch asking me if it was worth it—and I told him it was.

But, honestly, I find myself making that statement with more frequency today than ever before. We have already preached most of my middle-aged Purpose Driven friends out of the convention and now it seems that some want to so the same to the next generation. We need understand that if we keep choosing our traditions over our young pastors, we may have our traditions; we will not have our young pastors.

I am not here in SBC life because I need a job. I was neither reared nor redeemed in a Baptist church. I became a Southern Baptist in college because I believed the theology and loved the cooperation. I am here by choice and by conviction, not chance or convenience. Our church gives 10% to the Cooperative Program, 3% to our Association, and 7% to direct church planting—not because we have to, but because we want to do so.

Mainly, I am Southern Baptist because of missions. I know there are many negative issues in the convention and some of our churches scare me. But I can find nowhere else that has a consensus of belief on scripture and theology, and funds the largest denominational mission force in the history of protestant Christianity. Nowhere else, period.

So, I am committed to stay and do whatever I can to be part of the solution. This Convention is too valuable a resource for the Kingdom to walk away. It is worth every ounce of our investment to bring it into the 21st century. I believe that the things Frank Page and others are saying are true: this is a new day. Things are going to get better.

I see a lot of good things. Schools like yours (NOBTS) are modeling the way—through innovative approaches to education, and a diversity of professors teaching forward-thinking ministry models (and asking hard questions like these). Thom Rainer is leading Lifeway to think biblically about how to reach and disciple people in culture. NAMB is getting even more focused on evangelism and church planting (see article here: http://www.christianindex.org/2859.article). Many of our state conventions and associations are providing initiatives to promote broader involvement. The IMB is challenging us to think about people groups, and to be committed to work with other like-minded conservative evangelicals to take the gospel to every group of people on this planet.

There is a lot of good going on and now is not the time to bail out. I think we will see some positive changes in the next few years.

For me, the SBC is my extended faith family. Anyone with family knows that they are both wonderful and weird, which is why there is an audience for Jerry Springer and for Chicken Soup for the Soul books. Large family get-togethers can be fun and awful at the same time. Some members make me crazy, cringe, and wonder how we share a last name or DNA. Then there are the times when they make me laugh, make me proud, and make me happy that they make the world’s best mashed potatoes.

The SBC is not only my extended family, it is a community, it isn’t always neat and tidy and is sometimes downright messy. But it is the best family I can find, and we share common bonds that really matter.

Ed Stetzer on the Resurgence of Calvinism in SBC Life

7. The resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC has been a controversial issue in some ways. What is your perspective on the resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC?

I have mixed feelings which I will share below.

However, I share them not to be divisive, but hopefully to “provoke one another on to love and good deeds” (Hebrews 10:24). The convention should want, and does need, all Calvinists who affirm the Baptist Faith and Message and want to cooperate for the purposes of God’s kingdom. Furthermore, it is often the Calvinists who remind the convention about important theological issues like regenerate church membership, theologically driven ministry, and other important emphases. We need such theologically minded people in our convention today.

For many, Calvinism in SBC life boils down to a few key leaders (who I happen to like, but that is another story). However, if we extrapolate the numbers from Lifeway Research, there are over 4000 SBC churches with Calvinist pastors—and recent indications are that the influence of Calvinism is growing. So, I am not sure there is just one type of Calvinism in SBC life.

My concern is not with Calvinism per se, but with a form of “nostalgic Calvinism.” Nostalgic Calvinism leads to endless discussions of "solas" rather than an evangelistic impulse. I think the talk of “hyper” Calvinists is a straw man—“hyper-Calvinism” is a technical term in theological circles. I don't know any in SBC life. But, I do see many self-identified Calvinists who are constantly discussing the 18th century as the golden age of theology and praxis in Baptist life. So, I don't want them to get over Calvinism, but it would be nice if they got into the Third Millennium. At times, I am convinced some “nostalgic Calvinists” have forgotten our mandate is to see men and women brought into the kingdom, not into Geneva.

I think one of many positive examples is J.D. Greear and Summit Church (see http://www.summitchurch.cc/). The Summit Church in Durham, NC is a church that takes the Reformed tradition seriously yet remains relevant and contemporary in its approaches to ministry. Its explosive evangelistic growth is a testimony to biblically-faithful ministry.
Nostalgic Calvinism, like so many other “yearnings” for past days, sounds great in the classroom or the conference. But we need a “faith once delivered” lived biblically in culture and transforming lives. There has always been a stream of Reformed minded people in SBC life. Great. Let’s reach the lost together. Let’s cooperate for missions. Let’s even have good honest discussion about theology (as Drs. Patterson and Mohler did so well at the last SBC Pastors Conference). But, let’s talk about God’s heart for the lost at least as much as we talk about the five solas. Reformed theology is incomplete when it does not give birth to passionate evangelism.

Two hundred years after the Reformation, William Carey stood up and presented a treatise, “An Enquiry into the Obligations of Christians to use Means for the Conversion of the Heathens.” Within a few months, the first mission society was formed and money was collected using Andrew Fuller’s snuff box. But at that meeting, he was sternly rebuked, “Young man…When God pleases to convert the heathen, he'll do it without consulting you or me.” Although few would use those words today, it seems that a few in the Reformed tradition are critical of every means—and use none of them. Yet, they often do not have much of an alternative other than the argument that the “means” of others is wrong.

It was the Calvinists that launched the modern missions movements—but they did it by discovering the use of means. With the great need in the world today (not to mention the clear mandate of scripture), we can wait 200 years to figure out that we don’t know who the elect are and that we are called to proclaim the gospel to all, using diverse means, for the glory of God.
Before I went to work for the denomination, I was a pastor. One thing sticks out from that time—I think God received just as much glory when we baptized 51 people in Lake Erie one Sunday as He did when I preached that salvation is God’s work alone.

Ed Stetzer on Elder Rule in SBC Churches

8. The issue of elder rule has been controversial in many churches. What is your perspective on ruling elders as an expression of Baptist church polity and ecclesiology?

I am not comfortable with “ruling elders” as Baptist ecclesiology. I am comfortable with “leading elders.” However, a case could be made that part of the “church tradition” among some Southern Baptists is that Deacons served very much as leading elders. In recent years however, there has been a concerted effort by churches to return the Deacon to the role of “servant.” This has, in some cases left a void of leadership that many are now finding filled by some form of “elder” leadership.

At the church I serve as a volunteer, I am a pastor/elder and we serve as a plurality of elders. We see that there are two church offices—pastor/elder and deacon. We think that there are some pastors/elders who teach and some who do not. In the near future, our church may add some pastor/elders to our leadership who do not preach.
But, I am a congregationalist. I think that churches need to choose their leaders—and ruling elders tend not to do that. Ruling elders tend to be a self perpetuating board. I think that the final seat of authority, under the Lordship of Christ, is the congregation. They choose their leaders under the Lordship of Christ.

Also as a congregationalist, I think churches can choose their leadership structure. I think that the roles of pastors and deacons are biblically described and prescribed, so they should exist. I don't really care what people call them, but the roles and offices do exist and they are biblical. Many great SBC churches have pastors/elders/deacons, pastor/administrative team/church council/deacons, etc. Names are less important than roles and offices.

Ed Stetzer on the "Emerging Church" movement

9. What is your perspective on the emergent church movement?

I am not sure there is a movement... There are many conversations and organizations under the umbrella of what has been called the "emerging church."

It is not a big secret that I have written some things that well-known emergent leaders do not like. I have the unfortunate distinction of having been called "unhelpful" by the head of Emergent(http://blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2006/05/is_emergent_the.html). However, there are also some who think that anyone who says something kind about some emerging church leaders must be apostate. My hope is that we can be discerning enough to see the good as well as the bad, and to know the difference.
I want pastors who lead biblically-faithful churches in emerging culture to be in the SBC. I think that when we start throwing around labels without discernment, we will “preach them out”—much like we did to many contemporary church leaders in the 90s. I just don’t think we need another purge of biblically-faithful, God-centered churches, that do things differently than we do.

I do think that there is some serious theological error in part of the “emerging church” and I have written about it (see below). We need to speak clearly when the clear teaching of scripture is disregarded or misunderstood. Furthermore, there are some emerging churches where there is solid theology but an unhealthy emphasis on Christian liberty (language, alcohol, etc.). We need to speak honestly about the need for discernment and maturity in such contexts. But, most importantly, we need to rejoice when we find a biblically-faithful church in emerging culture, just as we would a biblically-faithful traditional church or a biblically-faithful Purpose Driven church.
With that said, let me excerpt and summarize some of what I wrote about the Emerging Church in an earlier article. See http://www.crosswalk.com/faith/pastors/1372534.html.

I do believe that some are taking the same Gospel in the historic form of church but seeking to make it understandable to emerging culture; some are taking the same Gospel but questioning and reconstructing much of the form of church; some are questioning and revising the Gospel and the church. I have identified three arenas in which emergent leaders are working.
First, there are those I call “relevants”. These are young (and not so young) leaders who some classify as “emerging” that really are just trying to make their worship, music and outreach more contextual to emerging culture. Ironically, while some may consider them liberal, they are often deeply committed to biblical preaching, male pastoral leadership and other values common in conservative evangelical churches. The churches of the “relevants” are not filled with the angry white children of evangelical megachurches. They are, instead, intentionally reaching into their communities (which are different than where most Southern Baptists live) and proclaiming a faithful biblically-centered Gospel there.

Secondly, there are those I refer to as “reconstructionists”. The reconstructionists think that the current form of church is frequently irrelevant and the structure is unhelpful. Yet, they typically hold to a more orthodox view of the Gospel and Scripture. Therefore, we see an increase in models of church that reject certain organizational models, embracing what are often called “incarnational” or “house” models. They are responding to the fact that after decades of trying fresh ideas in innovative churches, North America is less churched, and those who are churched are less committed. If reconstructionists simply rearrange dissatisfied Christians and do not impact lostness, it is hardly a better situation than the current one.
Lastly there are those I identify as “revisionists”, many of whom are are being read by younger leaders and perceived as evangelicals. They are not—at least according to our evangelical understanding of Scripture. We significantly differ from them regarding what the Bible is, what it teaches, and how we should live it in our churches. I don’t hate them or question their motives and I won’t try to mischaracterize their beliefs. But, I won’t agree with them. ”Revisionists” are questioning (and in some cases denying) issues like the nature of the substitutionary atonement, the reality of hell, the complementary nature of gender, and the nature of the Gospel itself. This is not new. Some mainline theologians quietly abandoned these doctrines a generation ago. Does that mean we cannot learn from them? Certainly not. I read mainline theologians like Marcus Borg and George Lindbeck like others in the past read Karl Barth. These are good thinkers, but deeply wrong on issues I hold as important. I read many emerging church writers the same way. They ask good questions, but I am driven to Scripture for the answers.
Let’s affirm the good, look to the Scriptures for answers to the hard questions. And, yes, let’s graciously disagree when others hold views contrary to our best scriptural understanding of God, Bible and church.

Ed Stetzer on Four Significant Theological Issues Confronting Southern Baptists

10. What would you say is the most significant theological issue confronting Southern Baptists in this generation?

I don't know if I can do just one. Let me throw out four that matter:

Cooperation: We have to decide that we have decided to work together. The promise of the Conservative Resurgence and the BFM2000 was that we would get to the point where we would trust each other enough to get on with our mission. So far, that has not happened. I think we need a biblical theology of cooperation and we need one quick!

Regenerate Church Membership: As a convention, we have a great sin that we have not addressed: most of our churches are filled with “members” who are not Christians. This is an unimaginable occurrence by scriptural standards. Members are not prospects. Prospects are lost people in need of a life-changing encounter with Christ. Members are believers in covenant community with each other. We need to get that straight.

Ecclesiology and Innovation: I recently wrote and presented a paper on biblical church innovation. We need to get a discussion going on what innovation is, why we do it, and what we should (and should not) innovate. Approaches to church have diverged in ways unimaginable twenty years ago—and the issue of how to innovate in biblical ways has been lost in the rush to be trendy. All the while a significant population of our churches think that any innovation which results in a loss of a perceived “Southern Baptist Culture” is to be avoided at all costs. We have an ongoing misconception that Biblical conservatism and cultural conservatism are synonymous. They are not. This is a major issue which we need to figure out together.

Missiology: We must drill down into our cultures here in North America and learn all we can about the people who live all around us. We must be willing to give the last full measure to take the gospel in the contextual heart language of these identified cultures. We must seek to stay biblically sound and culturally relevant. We must embrace those among us who are willing to take risks for the sake of the gospel. We must place more value on the command of our Lord to make disciples among all people groups, more than we value our “way” of doing church

Meet Rick Lance...

Meet Dr. Rick Lance...

Dr. Rick Lance, executive director of State Board of Missions and treasurer of the Alabama Baptist Convention, is an integral cog in the mission and ministry of Southern Baptists. The state missionary’s vital leadership stretches to over 3,200 churches and over one million Baptists in Alabama. Before assuming his present duties, Dr. Lance pastored SBC churches for over three decades, leading churches like the 5000-member First Baptist Church of Tuscaloosa. Dr. Lance has served in a number of denominational roles, including being a trustee, trustee chairman, state convention president, and most recently, President of the SBC Executive Directors Association.

Dr. Lance received a B.A. from Samford University in religion, and he earned his M.Div and Ed.D. at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. Dr. Lance and his wife, Pam, are currently members at Vaughn Forest Baptist Church in Montgomery, Alabama. They have two daughters.
Additional sermons, writings, and news articles pertaining to Dr. Lance’s ministry can be found at http://www.ricklance.com/.

Please, feel free to read his comments on pressing SBC issues and interact by clicking on the comment key below each set of questions.

Rick Lance on Strengths, Weaknesses, Challenges, and Opportunities in SBC Life

What do you see as the greatest strength of the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

I perceive our greatest strength to be the growing reaffirmation of who we are as Southern Baptists. We have defined ourselves concerning the basic doctrinal matters in a confessional way, which is the Baptist tradition. We are now reaffirming our belief in the missional relationship we have in the Cooperative Program as the life blood of our Southern Baptist life in terms of missions support locally and globally. This reaffirmation process is the sign of a vibrant and mature denomination.

What do you see as the greatest weakness or problem in the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

As a Southern Baptist, I find the role of critic an unnatural role for me to play. I suppose our weakest point is the same one that I see in American culture in general, namely a sense of apathy due to self absorption. Our culture worships personal happiness, and that idolatrous spirit causes us to be less committed to the mission of Christ which is to "seek and to save those who are lost".

What do you think is the greatest threat or challenge to the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

I would suggest that the problem of apathy is the one challenge which comes to mind. Apathy is subtle but pernicious. Although we all believe that people without Christ are lost, we do not make that conviction the driving force of our lives. If we do not believe in intentional evangelism, then we practice unintentional universalism.

What do you believe is the greatest opportunity for the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

There is no other denomination or faith group better poised to make a kingdom difference in the 21st century than Southern Baptists. We have the missional mandate, the financial means and the relational structure to see this happen. My prayer is that we as a denominational family will keep our eyes on the prize and go forward together for Christ.

Rick Lance on the Future of the SBC and Calvinism in SBC Life

Some have suggested that the Southern Baptist Convention is likely to decline in the near future. What is your assessment of the future of the Southern Baptist Convention?

The future, by its very nature is uncertain, but I believe that those who forecast a decline of Southern Baptists are grossly mistaken. Obviously, we have our innate challenges as we go forward, but that does not mean diminishment for us. There are those who predict the decline of the U.S. as well. I am old enough to have been around when the predictions on both fronts were made in earlier decades. As a card carrying Baby Boomer, I have heard that when my generation came of age that we would see the decline of all foundational institutions in government and in denominations. The boomers are not as loyal as the World War II generation, but we have not destroyed those foundations on which we were built as a people. As you can see, I am sometimes disturbed by naysayers who want to bury the best of the past and present in order that they can create their view of the future.

What would you say to a young (or old) pastor who is considering leaving the SBC? Why should they stay a Southern Baptist?

The younger pastors with whom I meet and fellowship don't seem to be as negative about the denomination as much as those I read about in the blogosphere. However, to those younger men who seem inclined on going it alone, I would say that there are times when you will never know you need a denominational family until you don't have one. During the desperate days of disaster relief on the Gulf Coast, I talked to numerous people who were most appreciative of the organized efforts we have in our state conventions in this vital area of ministry. The young church planters in our state are very appreciative of assistance which comes their way in salary and site commitments made possible by the gifts of Alabama Baptists through our Cooperative Program. The Southern Baptist Convention and the state conventions do not exactly fit the definition of a denomination in the old world sense of the term. We are more of a network of churches united in missions and ministry than a denomination like some of the others we know in the past or present.

The resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC has been a controversial issue in some ways. What is your perspective on the resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC?

As a child of the fifties and sixties, I lived through the dominance of humanism in popular culture. Although, I am not a theologian or a sociologist or as some would say a culturist, I believe that the resurgence of Calvinism might be best explained as a response to the over emphasis on human centered thinking in our culture. I am not a Calvinist as interpreted by the acrostic TULIP, but of course as a Baptist, I am highly influenced by the Reformation. As a state missionary, I travel extensively in my state and beyond. Therefore, I do know something about church conflict in the present manifestations, and I will have to say that, in some cases, the promotion of the so called Calvinist view has caused some strife in churches. I believe that any pastor, who is committed to the propagation of the Calvinist view of theology, should make that view very clear in the beginning of the process of discussion with the search committee and with the leaders of the fellowship. If the theological perspective is that serious of a matter to them, then being upfront about those convictions is the best and most healthy approach to take.

Rick Lance on Elder Rule, the Emergent Church, and Significant Theological Issues

The issue of elder rule has been controversial in many churches. What is your perspective on ruling elders as an expression of Baptist church polity and ecclesiology?

I subscribe to the offices of the church as stated in our Baptist Faith and Message. I am a traditionalist in the truest sense of the word. I believe in the ministries of deacon and pastor for the local church. Yet, I do believe the local church has the autonomous right to use other forms of church polity. Again, if a pastor intends on leading a church in a different way from the current practice the church utilizes, then he needs to be candid with the leadership before becoming pastor. For some churches non-traditional practices in polity are used and celebrated, and for that I can be grateful. However, I am fond of the traditional pastor and deacon led church which affords congregational affirmation in decisions and direction of the fellowship.

What is your perspective on the emergent church movement?

The term Emergent Church Movement has appeared on my radar screen in recent years, and I have sought to better understand it. I must say the term itself bothers me somewhat, but I know that there is not a perfect description which can be utilized to define and describe any movement. Based on my admittedly scant reading concerning this trend, I must say that I am concerned that there are theological deficiencies which are being presented by some who raise this banner before the evangelical world. Time will tell whether the movement is a healthy one, but at present I remain an interested and concerned observer.

What would you say is the most significant theological issue confronting Southern Baptists in this generation?

My evangelical roots and revivalist or Sandy Creek background would compel me to underscore the doctrine of evangelism as being the big issue of all generations. I guess I do theology in a three tier fashion. There are core beliefs which have to be defined which represent the first tier. The deity of Christ, the authority of Scripture and the necessity of salvation through Christ are three such beliefs. The second and third beliefs are to be debated and discussed but total uniformity will most likely never be realized. The doctrine of evangelism must be taught and personified in every generation or we will not be a Great Commission people. It must be a first tier belief for Southern Baptists in every generation or we cease being the people of God. I sense an apathetic attitude among even the strongest of believers today and this truly grieves me. I am a John 3:16 Christian who also affirms the truth of 1 John 3:16. I appeal to all evangelicals, especially Southern Baptists to be on mission with the Great Commission.

Dr. Emil Turner Responds to SBC Life

Dr. Emil Turner is the Executive Director of the Arkansas Baptist State Convention. Turner, a native of Bastrop, Louisiana, is a graduate of Louisiana State University and New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. He has served the Arkansas Baptist State Convention as executive director since January, 1996. Previously, Turner was pastor of First Baptist Church, Lake Charles, Louisiana, from 1991-1996. He pastored Mount Olive Baptist Church, Crossett, Arkansas from 1983-1990. He has also served as pastor of First Baptist Church, Harrisonburg, Louisiana, on the church staff of Hillvue Heights Baptist Church, Bowling Green, Kentucky, in the area of education and evangelism, and as a campus director for Campus Crusade for Christ.

Turner, who has a heart for evangelism, seeks to encourage Arkansas Baptist churches to tell the good news of Jesus Christ in their communities, nation, and the world. He is committed to missions, having participated in various international and national missions partnerships, including Europe, Bulgaria, Brazil, Korea, Nevada and Iowa, and has served as a trustee for the International Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention.

One of Dr. Turner's most recent contributions to Southern Baptists, Louisianans, and New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary has been his extensive direction and vision in involving Arkansas Baptists in disaster recovery in the Gentilly community of New Orleans where NOBTS resides.

1. What do you see as the greatest strength of the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

Planting new churches is making us stronger and positioning us for future generations of ministry. Whether these church starts are traditional, “emergent” or the result of differing visions within established churches, the result is that more people are being reached with the gospel, more “people groups” penetrated, more money flows to missions, more missionaries are sent, and our denomination makes a greater impact on our culture. Our church planting efforts mean that more people go to heaven and less people go to hell.

2. What do you see as the greatest weakness or problem in the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

Victims of our successes, we find ourselves unable to communicate what is actually being done to serve Christ. We are often redundant in ministries because we are unaware when ministries duplicate each other. In addition, we are surrounded by people and churches that have solved problems that others face, but we are usually ignorant of such solutions. This is surprising in light of the “connectedness” of culture, but it is a real weakness. Very few people know that a particular small rural church has developed a ministry that has eliminated meth addiction in its community. Very few people know that a particular urban church has been able to transition to become interracial. Because we are large and aggressive denomination, we can not keep up with the impact of our local churches. Ministries and skills are not being shared in ways that serve the whole denomination.

3. What do you think is the greatest threat or challenge to the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

Twenty years ago I would have answered that our greatest challenge was a type of liberalism that robbed churches of vitality and strength. Today, I believe our challenge can be described as a growing legalism that limits our ability to reach lost people, and focuses us on “policing” one another. While the SBC remains diverse, that diversity appears to be less theological than methodological. If we are not vigilant, legalism will do to us what liberalism was unable to do: make us sterile and cold.

4. What do you believe is the greatest opportunity for the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

The Disaster Relief work has positioned the SBC to be the most influential force in New Orleans, LA. We can make a profound change that city if we will use the influence God has given us through our service there. We should be sending evangelism teams and church planting teams (with the guidance of the local association) to harvest the souls of those made ready by our DR teams. Never before have we had an opportunity to shape the culture of a major American city.

5. Some have suggested that the Southern Baptist Convention is likely to decline in the near future. What is your assessment of the future of the Southern Baptist Convention?

Our missions focus, our constant concern for evangelism, the renewed interest in the Cooperative Program, the new church starts, the impact we have made recently through disaster relief efforts, the number of seminarians all convince me that we will be here until Jesus comes back.

6. What would you say to a young (or old) pastor who is considering leaving the SBC? Why should they stay a Southern Baptist?

In the early 1980’s I agonized over this issue. I had been a staff member with Campus Crusade for Christ, and was convinced that the SBC was not as evangelistic, nor as conservative as should have been. I was frequently offered the opportunity to pastor non-denominational churches. About that time I took a course under Dr. Howe, at NOBTS on the history of the SBC. It changed my thinking. I realized that the evangelism and Biblicism that I held dear were in the “DNA” of our denomination. I could not find a place where I could be more at home.

The last quarter century has confirmed my decision. The SBC did not disintegrate, nor slide into ineffectual liberalism. My ministry has been far more effective because of the cooperation with so many churches. My contributions, though weak, and limited have been multiplied like loaves and fishes and sent across the world. Anyone wishing to leave the SBC should ask two questions: Can you find a denomination with more compassion for the lost world? Can you accomplish more alone than you can with the SBC?

7. The resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC has been a controversial issue in some ways. What is your perspective on the resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC?

Calvinism’s impact on the SBC has been overstated. While it is a flash point for theological discussion, churches (which by the way, make up the SBC) are not shifting theological positions in any significant way. Calvinism becomes a point of contention in a church if a pastor attempts to press it upon the congregation, but I have observed many pastors who hold reformed theology who never make it an issue in their churches. The maturity of these pastors allows them to preach what they believe, while guarding their churches from controversy over this theological perspective. I do not believe Calvinism will rob us of our evangelistic zeal, nor do I believe that those who reject Calvinism have a defective theology.

The greatest danger from our current discussion of Calvinism is personal and individual. For some reason, theological debates seem to be accompanied by spiritual pride. Where pride exists there will be a quenching of spiritual power and ministry regardless of the theological positions you hold.

8. The issue of elder rule has been controversial in many churches. What is your perspective on ruling elders as an expression of Baptist church polity and ecclesiology?

Reactions against elders as church officers are based on Baptist history and on tradition. Older church members often react against the idea of the “rule” concept as much as they do the “elder” concept. While many of us believe that the terms “elder” and “pastor” should be seen as synonymous, I believe the New Testament allows for the leadership of elders as one of the models of church government. Practically, I have yet to see how elders enhance a church’s ability to minister and reach lost people. Some pastors have assumed that by replacing deacons with elders that the church would function more smoothly. My observation is that this is true for a brief period of time. The second generation of elders functions much like deacons. The title or office of the church leader is secondary to the qualities within the leader. It matters little what the leader is called if he is godly, evangelistic, loves his church and his pastor, and seeks God’s Kingdom here on earth. Fighting over the title of a church leader is far more hurtful to the church than anything else a leader can do.

9. What is your perspective on the emergent church movement?

This movement is so eclectic and so diverse that it is difficult to say any one thing about it that is true of the whole movement. At the turn of the last century, the Arkansas Baptist State Convention had an intentional strategy to start “county seat” churches in every county in Arkansas. Some of them were no doubt weak, had poor leadership, and suspect theology. Now those churches are very different than they were 100 years ago. In the 1970’s, the Jesus Movement gave rise to a very non traditional religious expression by people who had little or no church experience. Today, many of us who were involved in the Jesus movement are leaders in traditional SBC churches. A few years ago the “church growth movement” was in vogue. Today the principles of that movement are commonly practiced in SBC churches. No one knows what will happen to churches in the “emergent church movement”. But twenty five years from now, some of those churches will be strong and making a solid impact, others will not. Our response should be to help clarify doctrinal non-negotiables for those attracted to that movement, and strengthen and encourage what is good. We must be careful not to disparage it through the use of “straw men” and negative stereotypes, but provide solid biblical guidance where possible.


10. What would you say is the most significant theological issue confronting Southern Baptists in this generation?

I believe we stand on the verge of universalism. We are losing the ability to speak about hell with any authority. Even in a state as traditionally Baptist as Arkansas, we have lost a church to universalistic theology. Our church members do not pity their lost friends, and our preachers are reluctant to speak of people going to hell. I believe two factors have created this threat. One is the unwillingness to oppose culture. We are too quick to exchange immediate relevance for truth, whenever truth is unpopular, or hard to defend.

The other factor in this threat is the opposite extreme from our unwillingness to confront culture. In our desire to oppose immorality we have forgotten that morality is not holiness. We are called to be holy, not just moral. We can preach against abortion, pornography, and homosexuality and never go beyond morality. Conversion is necessary for reforming society. May God give us a heart that breaks not just because of the evil of immoral people, but because of the horrible eternity in store for those who die without Christ.

Q & A with Dr. Frank Page, SBC President

Dr. Frank Page serves as elected President of the Southern Baptist Convention, and is Pastor of Taylors First Baptist Church in Taylors, South Carolina. A native of Greensboro, North Carolina, Page holds a Bachelor of Science degree from Gardner Webb University, and the Master of Divinity and Ph.D. degrees from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Before coming to Taylors, where he has served the past six years, Page served as pastor of Warren Baptist Church in Augusta, Georgia; Gambrell Street Baptist Church in Fort Worth, Texas; LaFayette Baptist Church in Fayetteville, North Carolina, and the First Baptist Church of Possum Possum Kingdom, Texas. He is the author of the book, Trouble with the Tulip: A Closer Examination of the Five Points of Calvinism.

We are grateful for our SBC President to be our first guest host on the Baptist Blog! Please contribute your feedback and comments on the link provided at the end of the blog.

1. What do you see as the greatest strength of the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

I see the greatest strength of the Southern Baptist Convention being the massive number of godly people who truly desire to see our convention become a mission focused, Bible centered, evangelistic force for God in the 21st century.

2. What do you see as the greatest weakness or problem in the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

I believe the greatest weakness or problem in the Southern Baptist Convention right now is the deep factionalism that has occurred over many years. It is now so profound that many groups will not work together, fellowship together, or do missions and evangelism together.

3. What do you think is the greatest threat or challenge to the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

The greatest threat or challenge to the Southern Baptist Convention right now is the huge number of one-generation churches which predominate our denomination. Not only have a majority of churches failed to reach out to their neighborhoods with differing socio economic or ethnic groups, they have failed to reach out to other generations within their own ethnic group.

4. What do you believe is the greatest opportunity for the Southern Baptist Convention right now?

The greatest opportunity for the Southern Baptist Convention right now is the possibility of a selfless, unified movement where God’s people seek God’s agenda, God’s control of our convention, and a Holy Spirit renewal from God. I believe that we stand in a time where this could happen. Many of God’s people within our convention are so tired of the situation as it is now. I believe we have a great opportunity for coming together, recognizing differences, but pulling together in a common task.


5. Some have suggested that the Southern Baptist Convention is likely to decline in the near future. What is your assessment of the future of the Southern Baptist Convention?

I do concur with the assessment that the Southern Baptist Convention is likely to decline in the near future, if we maintain the present course. My assessment of the future is one of optimism. I do believe that there are a huge number of people in our convention who want to move forward in a positive way. I believe there are people in our churches who want to learn how to reach out to other generations as well as other cultural and ethnic groups. I see signs of hope! However, if we continue to fight among ourselves, then our future is dark.

6. What would you say to a young (or old) pastor who is considering leaving the SBC? Why should they stay a Southern Baptist?

I have said to many young and old pastors who are considering leaving the SBC that I would beg them to give our convention another chance. While some leave and some need to leave, I am asking our churches and pastors to move past any hurts, disappointments, and struggles to pull together in a common task of winning our world to Christ. I believe that we can do more together than we can apart. I am asking that the Spirit of Christ, which is a selfless, servant spirit predominate our convention and its leadership in the days ahead.

7. The resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC has been a controversial issue in some ways. What is your perspective on the resurgence of Calvinism in the SBC?

Most people know that I am a non-Calvinist in my soteriology. I do believe that the issue of Calvinism is going to be a major point of discussion in the days ahead. I believe that it can be a major point of division within our convention. I would ask pastors, ministerial students, and churches to follow the advice of Dr. Paige Patterson, President of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in his call for total honesty when dealing with potential pastoral changes. I believe this will go a long way in helping avoid major division and disruption with the churches. Both pastors and churches need to know where they stand in this area and need to be honest about it one with another.

8. The issue of elder rule has been controversial in many churches. What is your perspective on ruling elders as an expression of Baptist church polity and ecclesiology?

I believe that the Bible is clear in its description of pastors, bishops, elders, and deacons. While it describes those offices in the church, it gives latitude as to how individual churches will implement the actual governance issues of the church. I believe that the current move toward elder rule is one of several options, but is not prescribed in the Bible. Personally, I feel that many issues need congregational input while at the same time respecting the leadership of the pastor.

9. What is your perspective on the emergent church movement?

I have been quoted in the past as encouraging the emergent church movement. When I encouraged the involvement of emerging churches and leaders, I was referring only to those whose message and methodologies are biblically based. I was referring to those churches of which I had at the time become aware. I was and am referring to a group of young leaders in churches who are reaching the lost with a clear message of Christ, albeit in non-traditional methods. However, they are biblically sound in both message and methodology. I have become aware of some groups, pastors, and churches who are obviously not biblically sound in either message or methodology. I encourage young and non-traditional leadership which is biblically based and sound.

10. What would you say is the most significant theological issue confronting Southern Baptists in this generation?

I believe that the most significant theological issue confronting Southern Baptists in this generation is the issue of ecclesiology. What is the church? What does Christ want the church to look like? Does Christ want the church to reach out to all generations? How can that be done in the 21st century? I believe that these questions must be answered if we are going to be able to reach this world in this new day. I believe this will call for churches and denominations to be willing to shift to new methodologies and practices which are biblically based but culturally relevant.



Dr. Frank S. Page
Pastor, Taylors First Baptist ChurchPresident, Southern Baptist Convention